Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-ziegler10nov10" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/pr intedition/opinion/la-oe-ziegler10nov10</a>,1,3724416.story >>THE RESULTS of the special election, while largely expected, are truly remarkable for what they reveal about who we are as a state and the current nature of our political landscape. They are not just important because they may end up being Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Waterloo, but also because they show so clearly that our political discourse is terribly broken, perhaps far beyond repair. For instance, how in the world did Proposition 77 get so badly clobbered? The initiative — which would have taken legislative and congressional redistricting out of the hands of politicians and given it to a nonpartisan panel of judges — had the backing of our until-recently-popular governor, numerous Democrats and the majority of Republicans, as well as Common Cause and even the admittedly liberal editorial board of the L.A. Times (and every other major paper in the state). It is almost impossible to get that kind of agreement on what day of the week it is!<< Much more at the link...
Originally Posted By cmpaley NOTE: The preceding was an op-ed piece written by a rabid-right wing talk host on LA's home of rabid right-wing talk: From the footer of the article: JOHN ZIEGLER hosts "The John Ziegler Show" from 7-10 p.m. on KFI 640-AM. He is the author of "The Death of Free Speech: How Our Broken National Dialogue Has Killed the Truth and Divided America" (Cumberland House, 2005). And this op-ed piece if chock full of lies and distortions...as per usual for the rabid-right.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And this op-ed piece if chock full of lies and distortions..<< No kidding. Today's menu was suppossed to be serving Humble Pie and Crow Sandwiches. But apparentlly they ran out, and now are offering only Sour Grapes.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Well, it's Scharzenegger who's trying to reinvent himself, but the Republican Noise Machine has made no claims to be anything but what it is.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder Talk about your bad losers. The poster for posting it and the writer as well.
Originally Posted By cmpaley <a href="http://shell.faradic.net/~sphynx/crybaby.jpg" target="_blank">http://shell.faradic.net/~sphy nx/crybaby.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Well, we couldn't just post our own opinions, could we? We just had to wait until other people had a chance to write and publish columns with their opinions so we could just link them here without any commentary. It's just the lag in the press, that's all. You can't blame a guy for wanting to wait to comment until he found out what he was supposed to say.
Originally Posted By idleHands "You can't blame a guy for wanting to wait to comment until he found out what he was supposed to say." LOL!! I've scored a new .sig line for my email! Thanks, TS! And I'll be sure to give you credit.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder >"You can't blame a guy for wanting to wait to comment until he found out what he was supposed to say." LOL!! I've scored a new .sig line for my email! Thanks, TS! And I'll be sure to give you credit.< The worst (best?) part is Darkbeer isn't ashamed. Apparently pride doesn't enter into it with him. He just keeps on posting these links.
Originally Posted By ecdc I've complained about it and been told its "his right." That's true. I was even admined once for suggesting it's a bit over the top. Ah well. But seriously, for those of us who have no Internet access at work, it's ridiculous to have to show up to WEs and wade through a dozen new posts from DB telling us how evil the Democrats are. It's clear he's not interested in intelligent, thoughtful discussion, but only interested in overwhelming the community with post after post. It got old real fast.
Originally Posted By cmpaley It's called the Republican Noise Machine. The idea is to completely overwhelm dissent with an avalanche of op-ed pieces (notice that most of DB's posts are links to op-ed pieces, not actual news articles) so as to silence them.
Originally Posted By retlawfan I have to agree with DB, (I guess it's his opinion, even though he just posted someone else's writing). I am so disgusted that almost all of the advertising regarding the propositions lately are so full of lies and misleading information (from both sides). Although I see more lies coming from the liberal/Democrat side of most issues, there are some misleading items coming from the conservative/Republican side as well. I even got mailings from what was said to be coming from one political party, but it turned out to be coming from the other party. LIES again. What the people need to do, which I try to do on most propositions, is READ THEM. Don't listen to all of the advertising. ADS LIE. Just because someone says it's true(even if it is your Union, or your political party), that doesn't make it true. The details are in the proposition information which every registered voter receives in the mail from the Sec. of State. And, if people are too lazy to read the details on their own, then they should stay home and not vote. Oterwise they are not voting, they are giving their vote away to people that may not have their best interest at heart. And, if people read a proposition that they don;t care about, or don't see a difference in voting either way, then don;t vote on it. There is no rule that you HAVE to vote on everything that is on the ballot. I know someone that told me that when she doesn't understand some issue or proposition that they just vote YES on it, since it must be OK since it's on the ballot. Ugh. By not knowing what you're votong on, you're not using your vote responsibly. Read. Understand. Vote. Don't Read. Don't Understand. Don't Vote. (I'll step down from by soapbox now)
Originally Posted By cmpaley Sometimes propositons have lies in them too. The "findings and declarations" section of Prop 75 was a lie from the first word to the last.
Originally Posted By retlawfan You must have missed what I said. Read the proposition. Read the FINE PRINT. read what the actual law will be, not what someone's opion is of it. That cannot be a lie. That is what the LAW will be. If in the fine print it says something other than what we're being told in the ads, then the ads are lying. If the fine print is the same as the ads, then the ads ar telling the truth.
Originally Posted By retlawfan For example, how many people know that if 3 (random) retired judges did the redistricting (instead of politicians who wanted to keep their jobs), their reccomendations still had to go to the VOTERS for approval. So the PEOPLE decided the redidtricting instead of the politicians (From both parties) who are just trying to keep their power. What would be wrong with that?
Originally Posted By cmpaley I HAVE read the fine print. The "findings and declaration" section of the proposition IS PART OF the fine print. The way California Law is written, there are sections to each bill being proposed. Usually, there are three or four sections: Section 1 is the title. In the case of Prop. 75, section 1 reads: >>SECTION 1. Title. This measure shall be known as “The Public Employees’ Right to Approve Use of Union Dues for Political Campaign Purposes Act.â€<< Section 2 consists of the Findings and Declarations. Everything written herein is a bald-faced LIE: >>SEC. 2. Findings and Declarations. The People of the State of California fi nd and declare as follows: (a) Public employees are generally required to join a labor organization or pay fees to the labor organization in lieu of membership. (b) Public employee labor organizations operate through dues or fees deducted from their members’ salaries which are paid from public funds. (c) Routinely these dues or fees are used in part to support the political objectives of the labor leaders in support of state and local legislative candidates and ballot measures. Public employees often find their dues or fees used to support political candidates or ballot measures with which they do not agree. (d) It is fundamentally unfair to force public employees to give money to political activities or candidates they do not support. (e) Because public money is involved, the public has a right to ensure that public employees have a right to approve the use of their dues or fees to support the political objectives of their labor organization. (f) To ensure that public employees have a say whether their dues or fees may be used for political campaign purposes, it is fair and just to require that their consent be obtained in advance.<< Section 3 is a statement of purpose and intent...which is also a bald-faced lie: >>SEC. 3. Purpose and Intent. In enacting this measure, it is the intent of the people of the State of California to guarantee the right of public employees to have a say whether their dues and fees may be used for political campaign purposes.<< Section 4 is the ACTUAL LAW. See, California Law is divided into 29 Codes. One of those codes is called the Government Code. Prop 75 would have made an addition to the California Government Code. See, I have read the act. The thing is, I know how laws are written in California (I've actually done the exercise myself on an unrelated issue) so I can actually speak to the issues at hand.
Originally Posted By SuperDry retlawfan, you give very wise advice in general. It's so simple and common sense, it's almost amazing that you have to give it. I think the California system is particuarly good in this regard, in that every voter gets a Sample Ballot in the mail, listing all of the propositions, arguments and rebuttals for and against, all candidates, as well as the date of the election and your polling place. The other two states I've lived in have no such system. You get no information from the gov't at all regarding the election. First of all, you just have to find out on your own when the election is and where you're supposed to vote, and the only information that comes to you is electioneering materials that candidates or groups send to you or advertising you hear on the radio or see on TV. You'd have to be rather proactive to actually read the text of the initiatives before you get to the polls, but in California you have the full text right in front of you ahead of time. cmpaley, you make a good point about the wording being deceptive. The whole initiative process depends on a certain amount of honesty and neutrality from the Secretary of State's office to make sure that the summary that appears on the sample ballot and in the voting booth accurately and neutrally reflects the actual proposition. I can think of one high-profile case in California recently when this did not happen: the initiative that expanded Indian gaming to allow slot machines. The initiative was full of all sorts of vague language, including references to "electronic gaming." I don't think that most voters realized that their YES or NO vote was a YES or NO on widespread installation of slot machines statewide.
Originally Posted By SuperDry I posted #18 before reading #15. To clarify, even reading the fine print doesn't always tell the full story, as in the case with my electronic gaming being a proxy for "slot machines" example.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "I have to agree with DB, (I guess it's his opinion, even though he just posted someone else's writing)." Agree with Darkbeer? On what? Darkbeer hasn't said anything. You might agree with the North Country Gazette and Goat Breeder Weekly, but Darkbeer himself ain't said sack here.
