Originally Posted By plpeters70 ...and apparently everything else Obama stands for: <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE58H40G20090918?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=10530&sp=true" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article...&sp=true</a> <<WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. conservative Christians, a key base for the out-of-power Republican Party, gathered in Washington on Friday to rally the faithful against President Barack Obama's agenda, including his top domestic priority of healthcare reform. Obama's falling poll numbers and what they depict as his ultra-liberal views on abortion rights, healthcare and climate change are galvanizing a group that could prove vital to Republican prospects of taking back control of Congress in the 2010 congressional elections or the White House in 2012.>> Here's a fun quote: <<"The idea that the healthcare plan takes away choice and freedom, people see their liberties at risk," said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, the conservative Christian lobby group organizing the summit of self-styled "values voters.">> How exactly does the health care plan "take away" choice and freedom exactly? Can someone please explain to me exactly what freedoms we would lose if we had Universal Healthcare? More from the link: <<Most of those attending swim far from the political center. "I don't believe in global warming," said conservative activist Kim Simac, a horse trainer and mother of nine from Wisconsin who also believes that the teaching of creationism and prayer need to be brought back to public schools. The religious right has been at the forefront of conservative efforts to rally public opposition to climate change legislation aimed at curbing greenhouse gas emissions linked to global warming.>> I swear, the hypocrisy of these people is just astounding. They put all of their faith into religions that they have absolutely zero proof for, and yet, when presented with scientific evidence of something, they ignore it! Why do these people insist on living in a fantasy world where humans supossedly don't have any impact on their environment?
Originally Posted By ecdc plpeters, did you see the new study that shows teen pregnancy is highest in the most religious states? Good times.... At least Reuters is doing its job. I'm so fed up with our "liberal media" portraying everything as a horse race between two competing groups. The media needs to start covering stories in a way that help the 70-80% of Americans who AREN'T crazy. You want to do a story on how liberals want a public option but conservatives are worried about the cost? Fine. You want to do a story on the positives and negatives of other industrialized nations' healthcare systems? Let's hear it. These are important parts of the debate. But stories on how people think Obama isn't a citizen? Stories on how "some" people (the media has really mastered their weasel words lately) think Obama is a threat to their freedoms? These people are crazy. Quit giving them airtime!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<<"The idea that the healthcare plan takes away choice and freedom, people see their liberties at risk," said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, the conservative Christian lobby group organizing the summit of self-styled "values voters.">> How exactly does the health care plan "take away" choice and freedom exactly? Can someone please explain to me exactly what freedoms we would lose if we had Universal Healthcare?> We wouldn't lose any, of course. But note how Perkins phrases it: "The idea that the healthcare plan takes away choice and freedom..." That's it in a nutshell. In reality no freedoms are lost, but the likes of Perkins can still plant the IDEA into people's heads that they are. Stoke their fears. It's the triumph of truthiness again. And the big lie: repeat a lie often enough and it will seem like the truth. In reality, of course, most people currently don't have any choice over their health insurance NOW. Relatively few people buy individual policies - they're just too danged expensive. Most people get insurance through their jobs, and effectively have no choice in the matter. They get whatever policy their employer provides. The one exception to that, where employees actually get a voice sometimes in what policy they get, is through unions. If a company is thinking of cutting back policy X to a more bare-boned policy, say, unions can and do fight that. But that's about the only example of employees getting a voice, and naturally the right-wing doesn't like to bring that up, because they can't stand unions. But most people - they have no choice. If we got the House bill with the public option, that's actually one MORE choice the public (and small businesses) WOULD have. So Perkins and his ilk have it exactly backwards. Not that that bothers them - they'll keep stoking the fears and planting the idea that up is down and you should be really, really afraid of that.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>In reality, of course, most people currently don't have any choice over their health insurance NOW. Relatively few people buy individual policies - they're just too danged expensive. Most people get insurance through their jobs, and effectively have no choice in the matter. They get whatever policy their employer provides. << That is an excellent point, one that needs to be repeated every time one of these nuts starts in with their "Obama is taking away our choices!" The choices in the system now are exactly two: 1. Like it or 2.Lump it.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<plpeters, did you see the new study that shows teen pregnancy is highest in the most religious states?>> I didn't, but it's not really surprising. When you have a large population of people who don't teach teens about the use of contraception and make sex taboo, making kids more likely to try it, you have a recipe for disaster! <Most people get insurance through their jobs, and effectively have no choice in the matter. They get whatever policy their employer provides.>> Why haven't the Democrats and the Obama administration made more out of this? Are they afraid of some kind of backlash or something from insurance companies? I just don't think they are being agressive enough denouncing these crazy speeches from the Right.
Originally Posted By donnyaz As a Christian I give to charity's both with money ant time but Jesus Never forced anyone to anything it was through free agency that Jesus taught us to do good works.P.S. It was the Devil who suggested to God that he would force us to obey Gods commands (sounds alot like Obama care)Learn the Bible before you preach to me.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm a conservative Catholic. I'm not against healthcare reform. I'm against bad healthcare reform.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Learn the Bible before you preach to me.> No one preached to you. They pointed out the hypocrisy (and dishonesty) of people like Perkins, and rightly so.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I'm a conservative Catholic. I'm not against healthcare reform. I'm against bad healthcare reform.>> I'm a moderate (though more left-leaning) Catholic and I'm against bad healthcare reform too! But, unfortunately, the debate about what makes "good" healthcare reform seems to be getting drowned out by people who don't seem to want anything to happen. They may claim that they are for health care reform, but when they spend all of their time demonizing the other side, and doing nothing to help actually create good legislation, I can only conclude that these people are actually against health reform.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm not against healthcare reform. I'm against bad healthcare reform.<< What is bad healthcare reform? What is the alternative, or "good" healthcare reform? The biggest thing I hear from moderates or reasonable conservatives is "I'm in favor of reform, just not THIS reform. Ok, why are you not in favor of this reform, and what reform are you in favor of?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>In reality no freedoms are lost, but the likes of Perkins can still plant the IDEA into people's heads that they are. Stoke their fears.<< The new Time magazine cover story on Glenn Beck, crazy person, talks about how Beck does this. He spins wild conspiracy theories and then goes to pains to point out that he doesn't necessarily believe them. He's just askin' harmless questions. Riiiiiiiight.... >>Most people get insurance through their jobs, and effectively have no choice in the matter. They get whatever policy their employer provides.<< One of my good friends at work just found out his wife has some kind of fluid in her brain. She's been having headaches and even blacked out the other day. After the MRI, her doctor told her to go see a neurosurgeon IMMEDIATELY. Of course, they're both completely panicked and scared to death. They booked an appointment with the neurologist. His soonest time was the end of October. Good thing they don't have to wait like those wacky Canadians, eh?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Well, last week President Obama told us his plan was ready, wouldn't cost me anything and everything would be just merry. Outside of the question of whether or not a Public Option is included in the plan I haven't seen any facts about it so it is hard for me to say what I like or don't like. I've never said I didn't like A, B, or C...but I have said I have no idea what A, B or C might be. If a public option is done in a manner that prevents companies from dumping their provided insurance programs then I'm fine with that. There, something a conservative might like about President Obama's initiative.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan If a public option is done in a manner that prevents companies from dumping their provided insurance programs then I'm fine with that.<< Someone last night made a comparison to college. You have public universities, community colleges -- none of these have in any way inhibited the growth and founding of private universities and colleges and trade schools. The idea that the government option will somehow throw the insurance giants out of business is silly. It "might" make them take a hard look at their rates and how they treat customers, but it isn't going to take them out of the game.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>prevents companies from dumping their provided insurance programs<< But wahoo, more and more companies are doing this already. Dumping or massively scaling back the amount they will cover -- co-pays go up, up and up. With a public option, at least if a company dumped their insurance plan there would be somewhere for people to go. Right now if that happens, you are SOL.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I could understand the nervousness of a public option if we were the very first country in the history of the world to do this. But we're one of the last. Therefore, in theory anyway, we can look at what works in other countries, avoid what doesn't.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin Didn't Jesus say something like doing for the least of ye is like doing for Him...are these people really Christian?
Originally Posted By ecdc The Jesus of the New Testament is a bleeding heart liberal. he's not the *real* Jesus. No, today's Jesus is a white, anglo-saxon capitalist. He loves guns, the Bible, and freedom. He's more interested in gays, welfare queens, and abortion than he is helping the poor or the sick. He's fiercely anti-government, so when he occasionally pays lip-service to helping the poor, it's only through private charity and absolutely, positively NOT through government assistance. He's not Jesus the Christ as much as he's Jesus the Patriot. In fact, his middle-initial actually stands for "Heartland."
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<are these people really Christian?>> Yes, of course! They all subscribe to the new American Christianity where Jesus is a gun-toting, big business loving, illegal immigrant hating badass who only helps those who help themselves first.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 Dammit ecdc - you totally beat me to the punch. I was typing my little Jesus joke and posted before seeing yours. (Which is much better actually!!) ;-)
