Originally Posted By DAR <a href="http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/46731582.html" target="_blank">http://www.jsonline.com/news/e...582.html</a> The judge is completely right just because it's taking place in a church doesn't mean it has religious implications.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal While I agree that holding a ceremony in a church doesn't necessarily cary religious implications, I would have been seriously disturbed to walk across a stage and receive my diploma underneath a large cross. The religious icons are going to appear in each graduate's picture, right? It's not so much the location itself but the surrounding icons that are going to be a permanent part of any student's graduation pictures and memories. I think an alternate location would have been a better choice, but the ruling doesn't surprise me. Unless you're NOT Christian you wouldn't really see anything wrong with having a cross figure prominently in your graduation. I think if this was my senior class I'd skip graduation.
Originally Posted By DAR <<It's not so much the location itself but the surrounding icons that are going to be a permanent part of any student's graduation pictures and memories>> Well see they have these newfangled fancy digital cameras where you can remove the "offending" items.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal No, students should not have to photoshop their graduation photos in order to remove religious icons. And unfortunately memories can't be photoshopped at all. That's just more of the "deal with it, America is a Christian nation" attitude.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I agree with the judge, but I also agree with imadisneygal. A non believer may not want to have something as momentous as their high school graduation happen in a house of worship. Would this ruling have been made if there were a mega church of Satan that was willing to offer their facilities to host the ceremony?
Originally Posted By mele I think that any crosses, etc should be covered somehow for the ceremony for the reasons imadisneygal stated. It's easier to cover those items than for people to have to try to figure out how to edit their photos to remove the religious items. However, if the school needs an area big enough to accomodate students and their families, I have no issue with that. Did parents or students sue or was it just this group who felt the need to sue? I really get irritated by these sorts of groups who just look for reasons to sue, especially w/o even being asked by someone related to issue.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I assume that they sued after asking the school to hold the ceremony elsewhere and were told no. Still, I agree that conducting the ceremony in a church is not a violation of church and state. OAN, I can't believe that Bakersfield doesn't have other facilities that can accommodate a high school graduation.
Originally Posted By Ursula I can totally see it if the offending students/parents are Jewish. I mean, how do you explain the photos to the grandparents?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Don't high schools hold graduations AT the high schools, typically on their athletic fields any more? Is that hopelessly quaint?
Originally Posted By piperlynne LOL Maybe their gym is under repair? My HS always and still does hold their graduations at UW Hec Edmundson Pavillion. Which probably irritated some WSU fans LOL. ;-) It may be that the HS didn't have the capacity and the church was the most budget friendly venue to hold it. I don't see a problem with holding it in a church, but I do think they should cover the religious objects etc as to not detract from the ceremony.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I can totally see it if the offending students/parents are Jewish. I mean, how do you explain the photos to the grandparents?> How about this: Grandparent: "Why are you posing in front of a cross?" Kid: "My graduation was held at a church." Grandparent: "Oh, okay. What's for dinner?" <It may be that the HS didn't have the capacity and the church was the most budget friendly venue to hold it. > I'd be very very surprised if that wasn't the case. I also wouldn't have a problem with easily covering or removing stuff that gets in the way, and possibly covering a cross - especially if they have a bloody statue Jesus on it. If it's just an ornate cross, then big deal. It's part of the architecture, like 90% of the doors in America.
Originally Posted By mele << It's part of the architecture, like 90% of the doors in America. >> What does this mean? So a bloody Jesus is somehow bad but a cross isn't?
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I wonder how Christians would you feel if their high school graduation were held in say, an Islamic mosque or Jewish synagogue? Or what about a gay & lesbian community center? Would that change their attitude about this case?
Originally Posted By imadisneygal How about this: Grandparent: "Why are you posing in front of a cross?" Kid: "My graduation was held at a church." Grandparent: "Oh, okay. What's for dinner?" <><><><><> It's not that simple. And unless you're not Christian you just don't understand. Like Hans said, it would be a whole different story if Christians were being asked to stand and receive their diplomas in front of a Torah Ark. The reason so many people think this isn't a big deal is because the cross doesn't represent something contrary to their personal beliefs. For me, it does. I think the judge made the wrong decision in this case by not stipulating that the religious icons should be covered particularly on the dais where the students will be receiving their diplomas. The cross is inherently Christian, there is no other possible connotation. There must have been some other venue large enough to hold a graduation. What about Cal State Bakersfield for crying out loud?!
Originally Posted By DAR <<Don't high schools hold graduations AT the high schools, typically on their athletic fields any more? Is that hopelessly quaint? >> Both schools in this district and it's rather hoity toity have about 3000 students combined. So I don't know the exact graduating totals, but a lot of the suburb schools do combine ceremonies. And the Milwaukee Public Schools will have their ceremonies at Miller Park(Brewers).
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Like Hans said, it would be a whole different story if Christians were being asked to stand and receive their diplomas in front of a Torah Ark. > I think that would be cool. <I wonder how Christians would you feel if their high school graduation were held in say, an Islamic mosque or Jewish synagogue?> Awesome. <Or what about a gay & lesbian community center?> I wouldn't care. The decor would probably be great! < So a bloody Jesus is somehow bad but a cross isn't?> For me personally, yes. I wouldn't have a problem with a cross in the background. But I wouldn't like having a statue of a bloody, tortured person the backdrop of my graduation. We all have different opinions. BTW, my comment about the doors really has no relevance. But check out a basic wooden door the next time you see one. Many, many have a pattern of two small rectangles above two large rectangles, forming a cross.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal <Like Hans said, it would be a whole different story if Christians were being asked to stand and receive their diplomas in front of a Torah Ark. > I think that would be cool. <><><><> I'll go ahead and take you at your word on this one because I have no reason not to, but I will say that I think MANY Christians would disagree. If you're Christian then you probably wouldn't want a life event like a graduation commemmorated in front of a religious icon that doesn't represent your own religion. I think you might be in the minority on this one if the situation were reversed. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think I am. Maybe it's just that I am touchy about this type of situation because it's always just assumed that my kids and I are some denomination of Christian just because we live in America. I don't think too many Christians would be too thrilled to hear that their public school would be presenting their diplomas directly in front of a Torah Ark or a similar icon in a mosque.
Originally Posted By Ursula Yeah, right, josh. And all of the cute Bubie's across America can easily explain to their friends why THEIR grandchild's graduation photo is in front of a cross? Get real. Have you met a Jewish Grandmother?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip My daughter's High School graduation was held in St. Paul's Excel Center... a hockey arena. It was the most impersonal thing I've ever attended. The kids were seated on the floor of the area, the parents and guests barely filled the lower deck; the upper deck was pretty much empty. You couldn’t see worth a darn or hear much either. You ever heard the echo in a half-full hockey arena? I would have LOVED having it at a church. Anything would have been better than a hockey arena. I’ll take a cross in the background over a Wild pennant any day of the week. Her graduating class was too large for the school gym and they didn't like the football field because of weather considerations. No one liked the Excel. In the following years they had graduation in Northrop Auditorium on the University of Minnesota campus. They had to limit the guests you could invite, but at least it was a quality experience.
