Originally Posted By vbdad55 The question is not whether the posts do represent multiple points of view - but rather is that what the majority wants ? And for expediency, let's not pretend there's not a majority view here. I have no problem that there is if everyone truly wants discourse and not to just present one point of view as correct. I am not posting this looking for sympathy ( before that gets said) - nor to try and 'even up' the sides. I have no problem being a minority opinion voice - never had anywhere in my life. Two items that really make me question is anyone wants to hear what I ( or others not in the majority) have to say or if they value the content at all. It takes time to be a member of a board like this and I already Mod a board for our school district which takes a lot of time. We had a lot of contentious things happening our SD ( of which I was a board member) - of 30,000 students. We have / had well over 2500 members of our Pro Board. Similar things happened there that I view here so this is not just a random thought. There were lines drawn between 2 sides - in our case to spend $150M for a 3rd high school or not ? justified - put it where -bounderies etc. What happened is the kind of sniping that seemsto have ramped up (was here 8 years ago also at and after election time)- I am sure many of you remember well. Well our board eventually got to the point where the majority was so unyielding - the minority split out and started their ownPro Board. 2500 participants dropped to 1800 - 700 leaving. Each board ended up espousing one major point of view ( minor points not all the same) and everyone agreeing. After about 4 months or so, participation in both boards dropped significantly. I know I get tired of reading the same thing over and over- others do to. It took us a year of talking but were joined the two boards. We moderate more loosely than here- but do adhere to some level of standards with regards to language and attacks. It is way better now. Recently when some posters claimed Obama was being treated like a Messiah ( and that word even being used) by SOME followers - a challenge was thrown out to show them were- we were over reacting and just jealous. Well when examples were given - both of followers using terms exactly like that on the news - and then media using it in print - then justifications were made why each was OK. (person was old - it's the media - it's only Farrakhan etc ). Kudo's to the few ardent Obama supporters MAWNCK as an example who had no trouble admitting some of this was going on and didn't feel somehow threatened that their own support of Obama was in any way cheapened. The rest of us understand the solid reasons most Obama supporters are so - it just seems if anyone questions anything about Obama - it suddenly becomes personal to others here. Now unless I missed something - no one hereis related to the man. If one wants to know how others feel about issues, they have to be willing to be honest. Everyone here knows I did not vote for Obama- but that I wish him success - I have no trouble with anything except his lack of mgmt experience - that I think he's done a good job with the cabinet so far --and that as a moderate who votes cross party all the time,if he does a good job and can head us in the right direction out of this economic abyss ( I don't expect anyone to fix it in 4 years) - I will absolutely consider voting for him next election. We'll see... The second occurance was today - and it doesn't matter who the other poster was because it could have been anyone. Some who are notDem supporters are accused of over reacting ALL the time. Now I now I do sometimes - and if you all are being honest - so do most people occassionally - but it's not a 'side' or a 'group' who does it. it's equal opportunity. Less than a week ago ( after many times when people claim evil things are not said about Bush as a person) - he was called the Anti Christ again by a frequent poster. If you want to make that statement - cool - but then own up and admit this happens. Then today when I quote the comment made - I get accused of over reacting ? Why ? Why didn't the original comment draw the same response ? I won't even get into the religious debates because I actually do understand why they getso heated and divided - there is a huge gulf of belief and non belief-- now I hate belitting comments like believing in the Leprechaun from Lucky Charms - it could be more civil but again I get it more than doing this over differing politicians that when it comes down to it - are still politicians. So I think people really do need to decide what they want LP to be. There are precious few real conservatives here - and I have seen a distinct drop off in posting from moderates this month. The choice really belongs to everyone... I don't want it to become a 'soft' board - but somewhat fair would sure be nice... thanks for listening ( those who do )
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I am sure this will rub some the wrong way - so in order to let it play out,I am taking the rest of the day off - maybe tomorrow also. I hope people read this in the spirit in which it was written. I have seen what happens when a board becomes one sided - it no longer becomes a discussion board. If people choose to rip into those of us left - I'll see the rest of ya' in WDW -DVC threads.
Originally Posted By mele You have continually mae the accusation that people are treating Obama like a Messiah in threads people are having where no one is doing that. Fine. We know you feel that way and are offended by those people. But those people are not on LP. Maybe you could start a thread with that as the topic instead of implying in so many threads that LPers are the ones calling Obama the Messiah? There are all sorts of whackos in the world but you have to understand that repeatedly chiming in with vague comments about Obama supporters. When you're called on it, you say "oh, no, not you, it's other people". You're too smart for that kind of behavior. As always, it's funny that you want to be able to give your negative opinions (which sometimes have nothing to do with the topic of the thread) but then get upset when people try to give their own opinions about your posts. And, again you threaten to leave WE when people don't agree with your posts. No one is abusing you but you seem to want to be able to tell other people their opinions are wrong but can't take it when people do it to you.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>it just seems if anyone questions anything about Obama - it suddenly becomes personal to others here<< I can't speak for everyone, but it isn't personal to me. What does get tiresome, however, is when we get continued things like... "You can't say anything against Obama, I guess" whenever someone tries to debate something he has done or plans to do. That's getting very old already. And let's face it, it's a tactic. By making the claim that "no one dare criticize Obama" it shifts attention away from whatever specific is being debated. The person saying it gets to seem like they have been unfairly pounced upon. It's a victim statement. Which isn't to say that people aren't at times unfairly pounced upon. It happens, and it's unfortunate. But I have seen this sort of scenario several times throughout the election and afterwards... Poster A makes a broadbrush statement about Obama or his supporters. Poster B refutes it. Poster A responds with "Well, you can't say anything negative about Obama, heavens no, you have to drink the Kool Aid, etc." So, no, I don't want it to be a one-sided conversation. And I am 100% with you in thinking we need to have some mutual respect and choose our words carefully. But at the same time, should I just shut up when I think someone is using a particular tactic as described above? Of course people can criticize Obama or any other politician. So there's no reason to pretend they can't. And people can join in the criticism or defend Obama if they agree with him. This is all basic stuff. But can we get away from the Messiah junk now? Must it come up in every thread that discusses Obama? For what it's worth, I think there certainly are reasonable conservative arguments to be made against some of the things Obama is proposing and doing. I like to hear them, and I do think about what people on both sides have to say. But when it includes the Messiah junk, count me out.
Originally Posted By mele Oops: "There are all sorts of whackos in the world but you have to understand that repeatedly chiming in with vague comments about Obama supporters is going to ruffle feathers when you make blanket statements about "supporters".
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Why didn't the original comment draw the same response ?<< Because, in my opinion, most people see how ridiculous a statement like "Bush is the antiChrist" is. It's so ridiculous that it isn't really worthy of much comment. There's no where to go with someone who makes such a statement, except into a flame war. I don't think silence over that sort of statement is a sign of agreement for most people -- it's a ridiculous, petty comment that isn't worth engaging.
Originally Posted By Mr X LP WE is hardly bipartisan, it would be ridiculous to claim otherwise. On the issue at hand, I think the issue is simply a matter of degrees. I believe the original claim was "some" of Obama's supporters call him Messiah or something along those lines. When pressed, we were given a couple of very extreme examples (Farakkhan? Please!) and one little old lady (didn't some other clueless little old lady call him a dangerous Arab? how much credence was SHE given?). So what it boils down to is, SURE you could find a handful of examples of off the wall types who will say just about ANYTHING (I'll bet stuff like "Greatest American President" has been attributed to FP Bush over the years, and not just by Colbert), but that hardly qualifies as "some people". A big stretch, any way you look at it. So, no I don't see this particular argument as bipartisan or not, it's simply reasonable people shooting down the efforts of some who are trying to stretch the truth.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros In general, I avoid World Events like the plague. Around the time of the election, it seemed that there were actually a lot of fairly evenly sided threads with issues being discussed in quite a civil manner. I really enjoyed the discussions that I was involved with at that time, and I hoped that they would continue past the election time. However, literally the day after the election, the threads started turning into discussions of how Obama was basically the best thing since sliced bread and anyone who disagreed was ridiculed. After that, I spent several weeks without returning to WE at all. Every now and then I still come over and read the threads that seem interesting, but I rarely post. I realize that my opinion on most issues is really different than what a lot of other posters feel, so most of the time I feel like I just have to come in and defend myself all the time. That's not a terribly fun thing to do, so I've simply stopped posting most of the time in WE. In general I really enjoy the two (or more) sided discussions that happen at LP, but most of the time I have found that the two-sidedness just isn't to be found in World Events.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip There is absolutely no way that LP is bipartisan or comes close to giving equal respect to views from both sides. Conservatives here get trashed just as thoroughly (if not more so) than liberals do on the most conservative boards I've seen. And God help you if you are conservative AND religious. You are among the freaking dregs of society and you might as well own up to it. This is a HORRIBLE place to have any type of rational discourse. On the other hand, I find it amusing as hell and enjoy posting here. Sometimes, being a moderate, I find others here who agree with me. At other times, it becomes a contest to see if they can piss me off more than I can piss them off. Oh well. All is fair in love and war. But bipartisan? Gimme a break!!
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I don't think silence over that sort of statement is a sign of agreement for most people -- it's a ridiculous, petty comment that isn't worth engaging.<< Playing Anti-Christ's advocate here ... isn't the Obama as Messiah stuff exactly the same thing? And yet, how many posters felt the need to chime in and say "Not so"?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Oh, I think there's two-sidedness; it's just that with a majority of liberals (which is what we have now - it wasn't always thus), conservatives can feel outnumbered, which never feels great. For example, a conservative posts something in post #10. #11 is a liberal saying "I disagree, and here's why." #12 is a liberal saying "I disagree, and here's why." #13 is a liberal saying "I disagree, and here's why." It would be easy to feel "ganged up on" on even bullied in such a situation, even if the posts were all respectful and well-argued. The other thing that has happened in the last couple of years is that a lot of moderates have probably SEEMED more like liberals than they are. I know SPP for one defended Bush for a long time and voted for him; but like a lot of people in the country he grew disenchanted with Bush and wasn't shy about criticizing him. So to an outside observer coming in in, say 2007, SPP probably seemed like a member of the liberal cabal, when actually he's a moderate. Don't forget that eventually Bush had a 22% approval rating, and that's going to be reflected in our little microcosm here. And since Bush was the big cheese, he took a lot of criticism here, which probably made WE circa 2007-08 seem more liberal that it actually is. As Obama inevitably makes mistakes, I think you'll see a seeming shift back towards the center, as the new president takes his share of flack. At any rate, sign me up for 2oony's #4: <For what it's worth, I think there certainly are reasonable conservative arguments to be made against some of the things Obama is proposing and doing. I like to hear them, and I do think about what people on both sides have to say.: Absolutely. <But when it includes the Messiah junk, count me out.< Absolutely.
Originally Posted By mele <<However, literally the day after the election, the threads started turning into discussions of how Obama was basically the best thing since sliced bread and anyone who disagreed was ridiculed>> This is just more of the same. Please provide links or quotes where this has happened. And not just quotes from one poster...if you want to claim that it keeps happening, it should be easy to find proof.
Originally Posted By gadzuux 'WE' isn't bi-partisan. I've been in here a long time and I don't think it ever has been. That might be because there's a lot of californians here since the board itself is DL centric. And I can completely understand that it must be discouraging to the conservatives here - not only are they outnumbered, but if we're being honest they're often outwitted too. Some of the WE 'locals' who hold conservative beliefs aren't very effective at supporting their side. When cheap tactics are used instead of honest debate, they're going to get called on it. People take this as an "attack", and it sometimes they're right - it often strays into the personal. Also, I think "liberal" gets overused. Just because someone was disgusted by the antics of the bush administration doesn't automatically mean that they're liberal. From what I can see, STP, K2M, kennesawtom, Ursula and many others aren't your died-in-the-wool lefties. But on the hot-button issues like bush, gays, church and state, they line up on the same side as sensible people everywhere. So I'd say that there are a lot of posters here that look like 'luke-warm' liberals to conservatives when they're actually very moderate. And Ferret - don't feel discouraged from posting here. You are able to express your "different" views very effectively. That's all it takes - if you can support what you say you should be just fine.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>isn't the Obama as Messiah stuff exactly the same thing? And yet, how many posters felt the need to chime in and say "Not so"?<< That's a good point. I probably should have just let the Messiah stuff go in the same way. I can say that I DO just let it pass most times, but after you hear it again and again and again, during the nasty campaign and right up to now, it becomes time to say "Alright already. Enough with the Messiah stuff." But you're right. Perhaps it's best just to let the Messiah comments go, not respond to them at all. Maybe when the tactic doesn't get a response anymore, everyone can move on.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "And Ferret - don't feel discouraged from posting here." I wouldn't feel so discouraged if people weren't generally condescending in the way that they approach matters like... "many others aren't your died-in-the-wool lefties...they line up on the same side as sensible people everywhere." So clearly I have no sense, as I feel differently about these things than the 'popular' opinion in WE. It's just little things like that, where they seem harmless enough, but over time just start to get under my skin, and really make me want to avoid this section. I really like all of these people in the other boards, but over here, it just tends to make my day worse. No one thing that I can pull out and quote, but just a general feeling of 'us' against the evil conservatives seems to permeate through WE.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Well you had one quote that you pulled out - mine - in the context of bush, gays and church and state issues. Perhaps you support bush, are opposed to equal rights for gays, and believe that churches should hold sway over legislation. If so, then yes - you would be out of the mainstream, at least for this room. And these positions would be tough to defend.
Originally Posted By Mr X The Bush issue notwithstanding (obviously he left town with a GIGANTIC percentage of Americans disapproving of his efforts) I think it's fair to say that there are a large number of Americans still who have issues about gays or church and state or other hot button stuff. To claim that they are all "less than reasonable" is to claim that about half the country is. I feel persuasion and dialogue is better here, and I can dig what Ferret is getting at (and yeah yeah, before someone chimes in I realize full well that I can be guilty of it).
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster I believe that the conservative administration of the past eight years has done trememdous damage to the image of conservativism. As such there are many people who have become extremely critical of the conservative philosophy (myself certainly included) which has failed all of us. The mindset of the country has shifted to the left-of-center and this board is reflecting that. Liberals were suppressed for a while but now we have a voice again and we're speaking out. Someday the country will swing back to the conservatives but not until this time plays out. As someone who was ridiculed by coservatives for opposing the invasion of Iraq, I have little sympathy for those who feel like they are in the minority today.
Originally Posted By DAR <<The mindset of the country has shifted to the left-of-center and this board is reflecting that.>> This country is center it always has been. If it had moved to the left then we wouldn't be having any sort of debate on gay marriage.
