Originally Posted By Darkbeer From today's Wall Street Journal, an editoral written by Joel Klein and Reverend Al Sharpton. <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123172121959472377.html?mod=djemEditorialPage" target="_blank">http://online.wsj.com/article/...rialPage</a> (selected paragraphs only) >>Dear President-elect Barack Obama, In the afterglow of your election, Americans today run the risk of forgetting that the nation still faces one last great civil-rights battle: closing the insidious achievement gap between minority and white students. Public education is supposed to be the great equalizer in America. Yet today the average 12th-grade black or Hispanic student has the reading, writing and math skills of an eighth-grade white student.... EEP's mission thus turns out to be unexpectedly radical -- and we have run afoul at times of longtime Democratic allies. While we recognize that the No Child Left Behind law has numerous flaws that need correcting, we staunchly support NCLB's core concept that schools should be held accountable for boosting student performance. Dismissing the potential of schools to substantially boost minority achievement, as is now fashionable in some Democratic circles, is ultimately little more than a recipe for defeatism. Like you, we also support expanding parental choice. High-performing urban charter schools such as the KIPP (Knowledge Is Power Program) schools are showing that minority students can close the achievement gap if given access to high-quality instruction. Finally, our coalition also promotes the development and placement of effective teachers in underserved schools and supports paying them higher salaries. By contrast, we oppose rigid union-tenure protections, burdensome work rules, and antiquated pay structures that shield a small minority of incompetent teachers from scrutiny yet stop good teachers from earning substantial, performance-based pay raises.<< WOW! Educational reform is truly needed, and not just for minorities, but for every student in America. School vouchers and competition is a great start. I think this paragraph says it all! >>EEP seeks to ensure that America's schools provide equal educational opportunity, judged by one measuring stick: Does a policy advance student learning? It's an obvious litmus test. Yet the current K-12 school system is designed to serve the interests of adults, not children.<< We need to put the KIDS first, and not the adults!!!
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "In the afterglow of your election, Americans today run the risk of forgetting that the nation still faces one last great civil-rights battle: closing the insidious disrimination gap between straight and gay citizens." The above is more accurate, IMO. If if had been written that way, would we be seeing a link?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Surely you jest. Outside of the right to marry, gay people are generally better off than non-gay people by a couple of very significant criteria. As a group they are more highly educated and have considerably higher incomes than their straight counterparts. Not to mention a generally better sense of fashion, but we don't need to go there. ;-) I am not saying they do not face some discrimination, but unlike discrimination against other groups it has not resulted in a lower standard of living. I get it. Gays got shafted in California and we are all pissed about that. I got the memo. I memorized the damned memo. But to say that discrimination against gays is a larger problem than the creation of a permanent underclass because of substandard education does nothing but harm BOTH groups. My wife and I have worked with and socialized with gay people for twenty years so please don’t throw homophobe accusations at me. The best birthday party I ever attended was for a gay co-worker and friend of my wife. It was his 50th birthday, and the highlight of the evening was when he was tied to a chair while three of his gay friends came into the room dressed as the Village People and marched around him showering him with condoms while “YMCA” blared in the background. A very good time was had by all. It was that evening that introduced me to the sublime pleasures of the martini. But let’s get real. The achievement gap between minority and white students is a significantly larger problem for our society than the remaining discrimination against gays. The situation for gay people has improved enormously over the past thirty years. The educational attainment of minority children has not.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I mean, really. You had an entire argument with me, got pissed, told me where to go and I wasn't even there.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Well, I don’t see where I got pissed or told you where to go. You must have a very active imagination. Of course I've seen evidence of that before, so it comes as no surprise. But what the heck... if you actually think I accomplished ALL THAT in just ONE POST I think I deserve a Golden Doobie for World Events poster of the year!! It would make a nice compliment to my 'Thumper' Golden Doobie.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 Thanks, Darkbeer. That's a very eloquently written editorial, and it raises a number of valid points about our national education system. I hope it has an impact. Notice what the editorial subtly does, however. It places the responsibility for the achievement of black and hispanic students solely upon the educational system, and it holds black and hispanic cultures blameless for the achievement gap. The article cites the failures of the "systems" of several of the worst inner-city districts in the country. And, yes, certainly, we need to improve the quality of education offered in those areas. But the weaknesses of those school sysems is not the whole story behind our national achievement gap. I live in a very integrated city that has a very good school system. Yet still our black students flunk out, quit, or graduate with a low GPA at a much higher rate than do our white students. It's not the school system. It's the students' culture. You don't get good grades in American History if you spend all your class time text-messaging. You don't graduate if you quit senior year to have a baby. Your GPA suffers if you get expelled for a month for being in a gang fight. I totally agree that our educational system needs propping up. And I'm glad to see Sharpton co-authoring something so cohesive and productive. But Bill Cosby is right. It's not all "the system." It's time for minority culture to take some responsibility.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 BTW, SPP and RoadTrip, this (being the New Year and all) might be a good time for me to acknowledge that your supportive comments in WE have meant a lot to me. Seriously. I sincerely thank you both.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Thanks Inspector. I think I am really a lot more open minded on issues than some give me credit for. I guess part of the ‘problem’ may be that in my world, gay people have been protected against discrimination in housing and employment by state law for many years now. In addition, I work for the University of Minnesota and like many Universities it is considered a very gay-friendly employer. I've worked with gay folks and seen them treated equally in the workplace for so long that at times I wonder what the big deal is. I know that is not taking into account all aspects of discrimination. Just as a guy who is 6'2" has no idea of the subtle forms of discrimination a short guy like me is subjected to, I don’t claim to know or truly feel everything gay people may face. But overall I support gay rights by trying not to make any distinction. I just interact with gay people the same way I interact with anyone else. Over the years 20% of the people I've hired have been gay. I wasn't into any type of affirmative action thing. They were just the most qualified so I hired them. So I guess my general makeup is not well suited to "in your face" type actions. On the other hand my daily life shows that I support equality for everyone. I'm glad that you have been able to see that. I hope 2009 is better than 2008 for all of us. Thanks
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Oh yes, it is NOT just the educational system... PARENTS are a big part of it, and that unfortantely Minority families sometimes don't do as good of a job at it. Maybe the community should help (aka pressure) these adults to be better parents. (Yes, I know, harder than you might think).
Originally Posted By Mr X So, you're saying that minorities are not as good at parenting as white people? Wha? Who, exactly, is "the community" that should be pressuring them? The white folks? Again, wha? I hope I'm missing something.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I get it. Gays got shafted in California and we are all pissed about that.*** It goes beyond that to the nth degree, and I think you might be shocked to see just how far it does go... YouTube ANY random videos of Rachel Maddow, Barney Frank, or any other high profile gay person, and read the comments. I won't even point to a specific video, because I don't have to. There is a level of hatred and nastiness that is very, very shocking and I think it gives at least the slightest opening into what gay folks in America even today are still subjected to on a daily basis (pockets of tolerance notwithstanding). I was taken aback when I read some of the stuff (and these are GENERIC videos, nothing on "gay issues" or anything of the kind...seriously, check it out). And by the way, I'm not pointing to a specific link because as I said, I don't have to. But beyond that, I CAN'T. Because not a single one of any of those videos (Maddow and Frank are just the two I've seen, I'm sure there are tons more out there) would be remotely acceptable under the LP community standards due to the overwhelming hate rhetoric on each and every single one of them. Sure, you can argue about other issues such as poverty or lack of inclusion, but on the gay issue I challenge ANYONE to find more vehement hatred being expressed on a more consistent basis. Even today. *sigh*
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Sure, you can argue about other issues such as poverty or lack of inclusion, but on the gay issue I challenge ANYONE to find more vehement hatred being expressed on a more consistent basis. Even today. *sigh*>> That truly saddens and shocks me (and I’ve not checked the videos… I don’t think I could handle it right now with the other stuff I have going on) I guess I really do live in a little world of the University where things are much nicer than they are elsewhere. I'm more than ready to retire, but I really hate to leave the world I've become accustomed to over the past 30 years. It appears that it’s not very nice out there.
Originally Posted By mele I think it definitely depends on where you live/work. I live in the Seattle area which is pretty gay friendly, however just recently someone has been sending threatening letters to the gay bars and gay journalists, threatening to kill them by slipping Ricin into their drinks. I have friends in less gay-friendly parts of the country and they literally live in fear that someone will find out that they are gay. One of my friends has a roommate who doesn't know she's gay but got mad at her and started spreading rumors that she and her friend are lovers. (They're not, they're just friends.) But it was done to try to cause trouble...and it will cause lots of problems at her school, her job, in her town and with her own family. Calling someone gay is still used as an insult and there are lots of people who are terrified they will be discovered and what the fall out will be. It's hard to imagine when you are supportive of gay rights or live in an area where people are free to be who they are, but it's really, really not like that in some parts of the country. It takes a lot of guts to be out in those places. :-(
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < As a group they are more highly educated and have considerably higher incomes than their straight counterparts. > RT, I don't think you're homophobic at all, but I really need to debunk THAT old saw and hopefully put it to rest. This idea was originally floated by some gay people themselves, trying to impress businesses and policymakers that they were a profitable market/demographic, with all that entails (i.e. "we have clout and mustn't be ignored!") It was later picked up by the religious right as a means of creating resentment among their flock - (i.e. "those gays are wealthier than you and have all this influence disproportionate to their size!") In fact, though, it was never true. Gay people are not wealthier on average than straight people. (Think about it a minute - it doesn't make any sense that they would be.) What skewed the stats was that they were all based on OUT gay people. Which is way different than gay people in general. It's much tougher to be out in the black and Latino communities, still. And of course, those communities are poorer than the white community on average. So you have all these poor black and Latino gay people who are closeted, and thus not included in these stats. Even among whites, it's much, much easier to be out in urban areas than rural ones (as mele talks about). And, of course, urban salaries tend to be considerably higher than rural ones. So that skews it, too. Even within NYC, I wasn't out in my 20's; I worked for a place with a homophobic boss, and I worried about being fired if it was known. It's a lot easier to be out if you ARE the boss than if you have to worry about being fired by one. So you had all these white, urban upper-middle class people skewing the statistics that didn't include very many minority, rural or working class people. Please, please, can we put the "gay people are richer than straight people" shibboleth to rest?
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie Most school districts survive from the funding which comes from taxes in their districts. The more wealthy a community, the more tax dollers their schools typically have to spend. Yet the poorer the community, the less money that community has, but the reality is, these schools need even more funding than a wealthy district, for programs that provide support for the children such as healthy meal programs, after school programs and assistance for further education. Yes, the community needs to play a part, but it is difficult for a family or a single mom working multiple jobs to take as active a part in a childs upbringing, when they are focused more on acquiring the basics of survival. The reality is, the children that succeed, typically find healthy mentorship outside of the basic family.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Please, please, can we put the "gay people are richer than straight people" shibboleth to rest?>> Sure. But please know there is no harm intended by anyone on this. If they are not "out", it's kind of hard to include them in the demographic, isn't it? <<In fact, though, it was never true. Gay people are not wealthier on average than straight people. (Think about it a minute - it doesn't make any sense that they would be.)>> Well, it actually does make some sense. Income may not be higher, but I would guess wealth is. Kids, God love them, are money-sucking little vultures. A group with fewer children, all other things being equal, would have greater wealth.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<Please, please, can we put the "gay people are richer than straight people" shibboleth to rest?>> <Sure. But please know there is no harm intended by anyone on this. If they are not "out", it's kind of hard to include them in the demographic, isn't it?> Yes, but it also makes those stats completely inaccurate. So, although I know you didn't mean any harm, simply stating as fact that "have considerably higher incomes than their straight counterparts" is both inaccurate and in the hands of those who DO mean harm, often used to generate resentment. This myth has taken hold (witness the face that you simply repeated it as fact), and has become something of a problem. Ironically, as I said, it was originally flouted by a certain group of well-off gay people. <<In fact, though, it was never true. Gay people are not wealthier on average than straight people. (Think about it a minute - it doesn't make any sense that they would be.)>> <Well, it actually does make some sense. Income may not be higher, but I would guess wealth is. Kids, God love them, are money-sucking little vultures. A group with fewer children, all other things being equal, would have greater wealth.> You have to compare like to like, though. A double-income/no kids gay couple is no more likely to have greater wealth than a double-income/no kids straight couple. Same with a single income/no kid person. THAT's the salient fact, not the sexual orientation.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<The more wealthy a community, the more tax dollars their schools typically have to spend. Yet the poorer the community, the less money that community has, but the reality is, these schools need even more funding than a wealthy district, for programs that provide support for the children such as healthy meal programs, after school programs and assistance for further education.>> Absolutely. And the conditions of the schools in most of the US' poorest districts are shameful. Not only are there insufficient supplementary programs, and not only is the quality of basic instruction horrible, but the schools often can't even afford essentials such as books, classroom supplies, and toilet paper. This is what Sharpton got exactly right. We need to improve the educational experience in impoverished areas in order to offer students half a chance to break out of that poverty. <<...it is difficult for a family or a single mom working multiple jobs to take as active a part in a child's upbringing, when they are focused more on acquiring the basics of survival.>> Yeah, that's another very real factor, isn't it? It's not easy. Hence the need for supplementary programs. But I'm convinced that if we funded all schools at optimal levels tomorrow, we would still be left with a huge achievement gap between black and latino students and white students. And that gap would be caused by cultural differences. As I wrote earlier in this thread, the school system in my city is the perfect "lab" for studying the effect of culture. We have a very diverse student population, both racially and financially, and all our schools are well-funded. We clearly see in my city schools that, as general populations, not only do blacks and latinos put less emphasis on educational achievement, but in many ways their cultures actively discourage it. Black girls in our schools exert intra-group pressure upon each other to "become a woman" by having a baby. The earlier the better -- ideally, before the end of senior year of high school. Black students who attempt to apply themselves seriously in academics find themselves ostracized by other black students. Doing well in classes is generally considered by black students to be a white thing and uncool. This pressure is especially high for males. It's saddening on so many levels that this "achievement gap" exists. We need to target ALL the factors that contribute to it -- financial, political, and cultural. Black people have tended to focus their energies on just the political and financial aspects of this issue, as Sharpton just did. To date, publicly they've mostly been mum or defensive about the culture piece. From a sociological perspective, I think that reaction is perfectly predictable. From a pragmatic perspective, however, that reaction is not helpful. I'm encouraged that -- in my locale, anyhow -- we're starting to see more signs of cultural introspection, more willingness to pose intra-group challenges for positive change, and more honest dialogue.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<I've worked with gay folks and seen them treated equally in the workplace for so long that at times I wonder what the big deal is.>> Oh where do I start? How about the time when my life partner of 14 years was having exploratory surgery to determine the extent of terminal cancer ( he was told that he had 4 months to live ) and despite having all the legal and medical releases in my hands at the time the surgeon refused to tell me the results. Because "his" accumption was that since we were not "married" that he did not have to tell me. And those results were: That my life partner was misdiagnosed and did not have cancer at all. Sure, gay people are not treated as if they were less than others. <sarcasm>
