Originally Posted By jonvn There is an interesting sounding book out, that I just heard about. On amazon, it is located here: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Screwed-Undeclared-Against-Middle-Currents/dp/1576754146" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Screwed- Undeclared-Against-Middle-Currents/dp/1576754146</a> It's "Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class -- And What We Can Do About It" By Thom Hartmann. He talks about how there are two basic groups who are literally out to destroy the middle class. The first group is the very wealthy, such as the Waltons who want to do things like repeal the inheritance tax and such, and who are rather easy to spot, because they are just wealthy people out to make themselves wealthier. He also mentions that these people are actually easy to legislate against having all the chips stacked in their favor. The second group he says is much more insidious, and dangerous. And it is harder to locate. What happened was that in the 1950s and 1960s, the middle class in this country got so wealthy and powerful, with so much leisure time on their hands they started looking around to get more of he pie. People started protesting, such as gay groups, women's rights groups saying they should be part of the whole picture. Kids protesting saying they didn't want to fight in the wars of the country. The arch conservatives in the country saw this, and it is their belief that a strong middle class is actually bad for the country, and since then, they have been trying to systematically destroy it. They did this by taking over one of the political parties, in this case the Republicans. And they create wedge issues over and over that they don't care about, such as flag burning and gay marriage that cover over and cause divisiveness among people while they continually siphon away wealth from the large middle class. They are doing this purposefully as they feel it is in the best interests of the united states to create a large underclass of individuals, and use these side issues as a distraction to make people vote against their own best interests. Eventually, it will make people so unhappy and fed up with how things are going, that they'll stop participating in democracy at all, and there will be nothing to stop these people from doing whatever they want to make everyone but a select few very poor. The author suggests that the way to fix this is for people of the middle class to start to infiltrate and take over the democratic party. That the only way to fight the neocons, who took over the Republican party making it something that it was not, is to do the same thing. It really didn't matter to the neocons which party they took over, they just chose the Republican party as an easy and weak target. The same thing can be done with the democratic party now. But it has to get done, or there will be almost no middle class left. I haven't read the book yet, but have gleaned that as the message of it. It sounds interesting.
Originally Posted By woody It sounds like you just formed an opinion without understanding it. How intellectual of you. >>The author suggests that the way to fix this is for people of the middle class to start to infiltrate and take over the democratic party. << Why not have the middle class take over the Republican Party? You know. Change it from within? Or maybe that has already happened and that means the Republicans do represent the middle class. I think the Democratic Party is too busy representing the interests of the welfare class and ignoring the middle class. The interests of the middle class and poor don't intersect.
Originally Posted By jonvn Nice to hear the nut position come out so quickly. Anyway, for the rest of us, you might wish to look into the book.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 just from your description the flaw I see is that the author assumes that the Republican party is made up of all neo cons, when in fact there are plenty of working class moderate - middle class people there also. In my 50+ years I have not seen what the Dems have done for themiddle class either-- and that is where the real issue lies. I saw Howard Dean on TV this morning and he actually made a comment about trying to save the middle class -- the issue is, when questioned on it he ranted off into another direction that had nothing to do with the middle class. I sometimes think none of these politicians at that level know what the hell the middle class even is any more. If anyone thinks that Teddy Kennedy or Hilllary or other rich Democratic party members have anyidea what a true middle class family is facing today -- they are kidding themselves also. To me the book wouldhave had more of a believable baseline if it would have pushed for a 3rd party based along middle class -moderate guidelines. btw -- is this the same Thom Hartmann that has a talk show on Air America ? If so then is has as little credibility to me as something that would come from Rush or Hannity, as far as being unbiased.
Originally Posted By woody >>Anyway, for the rest of us, you might wish to look into the book.<< You might want to read it. Heck, that's a good idea.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I see is that the author assumes that the Republican party is made up of all neo cons," My description may be flawed. I don't think he says that, but that they have taken over the party. "In my 50+ years I have not seen what the Dems have done for themiddle class either-- and that is where the real issue lies." yes, I believe the suggestion is that the democratic party needs to be taken over in the same way the republican party was, by people who are willing to protect the average person. Why? Because the people in there now are just not doing that, or are even interested in doing it. "is this the same Thom Hartmann that has a talk show on Air America ?" Don't know. Someone on the amazon site says so, but the name only sounds familiar to me.
Originally Posted By woody >>My description may be flawed. I don't think he says that, but that they have taken over the party.<< Exactly who is a "neo con". This can mean Jewish who favors a hawkish foreign policy and who is a former Democrat. I can assure you, numerically, the neo cons will never overtake the Republican Party. >>Nice to hear the nut position come out so quickly.<< vbdad55 said the same thing. You would appear to be espousing the nut position by taking the word of an Air America radio personality. <a href="http://www.thomhartmann.com/" target="_blank">http://www.thomhartmann.com/</a> The Democrats have never represented the Middle Class with any legislation they have proposed. So what makes you confident the Democratic Party will do anything for you? At least they are against organized religion. That's what you have going.
Originally Posted By jonvn "vbdad55 said the same thing." No, Woody, he didn't. In any case, you're about 1 degree off from Beau, so I'm not really interested.
Originally Posted By jonvn In any case what it sounds like this book is saying is pretty much what we've been talking about here about pensions and other things that involve the destruction of the middle class, so it might be interesting to read.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I'd rahter read a book that places the blame squarely where it belongs #1 the COmpanies themselves #2 both sides of the aisle in congress who has looked the other way while these same companies line their campaign pockets, rather than someone who decides to place the blame on 1 of the 3 cuplrits
Originally Posted By tiggertoo Lou Dobbs book "Exporting America" seems to be pretty square on on this subject.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 He has been calling it out for 2 years -- with facts, yet gets ignored by both parties -- he tried to get Kerry on board and he would have none of it -- the man gets his numbers ( jobs) from inside and I can tell you from what I have seen they are dead on
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I'd rahter read a book that places the blame squarely where it belongs #1 the COmpanies themselves #2 both sides of the aisle in congress who has looked the other way while these same companies line their campaign pockets, rather than someone who decides to place the blame on 1 of the 3 cuplrits<< I read some excerpts from that book over the weekend and it does place the blame on the companies and on the sell outs in Congress (on both sides of the aisle) who have backed them up. The author does seem to rattle the GOP's cage more than the Dems, and from what I read he doesn't advocate ditching the two parties and supporting a true patriotic 3rd party. So it is possible/probable that the author is a shill for the Evil Party. Anyway, it would be refreshing to have an alternative to the Stupid and Evil Parties.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>He has been calling it out for 2 years -- with facts, yet gets ignored by both parties -- he tried to get Kerry on board and he would have none of it -- the man gets his numbers ( jobs) from inside and I can tell you from what I have seen they are dead on<< This is what I fear. Both parties have utterly sold out to the super rich. They give lip service to their theoretical constituents (Dems: abortion and gay lobbies, GOP: Christian right), but at the end of the day they are in the pockets of the Billionaire Globalists of the world.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "" But now, under the guise of “freeing the market,†conservative and corporate forces are waging a covert war against the middle class, dismantling policies like Social Security, Medicare, the minimum wage, and fair labor laws — the very safeguards that foster economic opportunity and citizen engagement. The result is an economic system designed to line the pockets of the super-rich, the impending extinction of the middle class, and a very real, very dangerous threat to democracy itself. "" while Hartmann's last sentence is dead on - the opening shows he places the balmes squarely on one side of the fence - that is far from accurate.. I applaud the fact h is standing up and making people aware- however every Dem supporter should be asking the same questions - what has my party done with regards to this-- the answer is virutally nothing also
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>while Hartmann's last sentence is dead on - the opening shows he places the balmes squarely on one side of the fence - that is far from accurate..<< In other sections the author does acknowledge that the Dems have collaborated. He singles out Clinton in particular.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The interests of the middle class and poor don't intersect.> Never? Really? That's an, um, interesting philosophy. Revealing, anyway.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The interests of the middle class and poor don't intersect.> Never? Really? That's an, um, interesting philosophy. Revealing, anyway.>> Yes, that in a nutshell exhibits the failings of conservative thought.
Originally Posted By fkurucz Perhaps one of the most successful cons of the super rich has convincing the middle class that the poor are their enemies.
Originally Posted By woody >>That's an, um, interesting philosophy. Revealing, anyway.<< It reveals your own ignorance. The poor wants more social programs. The middle class wants more tax cuts so they can afford to support themselves. It's hard to raise a family on any income if the government takes one-third of your earnings. It's also hard to take advantage of government services since the government only offers the lowest possible quality like our public school systems, which are barely adequate. Yeah, you seem to know a lot about the middle class.
