Originally Posted By SpokkerJones As the economy started to collapse and gas prices became unreasonable, people flocked to mass transit in the latter half of 2008. In places like Charlotte, NC, workers were suddenly glad that the light rail network "no one would ride" existed to get them to work. Ridership in many areas hit record numbers. As new riders discovered mass transit, bus and rail systems buckled under the pressure. As tax revenues decreased, transit agencies had to make the difficult decision to cut service and/or raise fares. As the economy worsened, ridership dipped as laid off workers found themselves with nowhere to ride. Those who are left are faced with even deeper cuts. For example, in Orange County, CA bus riders have already endured big cuts in service (while freeways continue to be widened) and a 25 cent fare hike (the fare hike is not something I necessarily disagree with) and ridership has dropped 20%. This has prompted Orange County Transportation Authority board member John Moorlach to question why we even need bus service in the first place. <a href="http://www.ocregister.com/articles/bus-service-octa-2524251-county-ridership" target="_blank">http://www.ocregister.com/arti...idership</a> "Moorlach said taxpayers cover about 80 percent of OCTA's bus service, while fares cover 20 percent. Federal and state laws require the county to offer bus service or lose highway funding, but maybe the tradeoff isn't worth it, he said." Is he right? Do we get rid of mass transit, or, like roads (no road pays for itself with gas taxes, even the Texas DOT can tell you that), is it a public good worthy of subsidy? Before you respond, I want to point out some of the hate that is directed toward bus riders at times. Here is one poster from the article above: "My commute takes me on surface streets in Orange and Anaheim. Without fail, the bus stops always have several people waiting that look disgusting; dirty, mentally deranged, morbidly obese, shifty, or visitors from the Third World. You could not pay me to take a bus to work even if gas went to 10 dollars per gallon. The bus is simply a rolling sardine can for illegals, homeless, druggies, and those who have made a long series of very bad choices in their life. I'm apalled that our tax dollars subsidize 80% of this service for those scummy people." While I'm not offended in the slightest, as someone who takes the bus willingly to school (I also own a car), I have to say that characterization is simply untrue. Illegal alien transport or public good? Your thoughts?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"My commute takes me on surface streets in Orange and Anaheim. Without fail, the bus stops always have several people waiting that look disgusting; dirty, mentally deranged, morbidly obese, shifty, or visitors from the Third World. You could not pay me to take a bus to work even if gas went to 10 dollars per gallon. The bus is simply a rolling sardine can for illegals, homeless, druggies, and those who have made a long series of very bad choices in their life. I'm apalled that our tax dollars subsidize 80% of this service for those scummy people."*** Wow, talk about your class warfare. Anyone who needs or wants to ride a public bus must have made a long series of very bad choices? Interesting. That does seem to be the prevailing attitude in America. You see it all the time, with people of rather paltry means themselves voting against their own best interests in an effort not to "give" anything to those "below" them.
Originally Posted By Mr X Here's a peach of an idea...go ahead and get rid of all the subsidized public transportation, and while you're at it tax gas to the tune of $15 per gallon or so (for private vehicles only, of course...commercial trucks and buses get a pass). Soon enough private companies will be running the show (and probably charge a lot more), and we'll see how many of those "upper" folks will lower themselves to ride with the scumbags.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Anyone who needs or wants to ride a public bus must have made a long series of very bad choices? Interesting. << That's funny, in Germany it is more convenient, and preferred to take the train or bus somewhere over driving. I never knew how relaxing Public transportation could be until I was stationed overseas. American's don't know what they are missing...
Originally Posted By Mr X ***That's funny, in Germany it is more convenient, and preferred to take the train or bus somewhere over driving.*** Japan too. ***I never knew how relaxing Public transportation could be until I was stationed overseas. American's don't know what they are missing...*** I wouldn't call the Japanese public transportation "relaxing", though (well, on a long distance train with a paid for seat maybe )... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9nnXw_6WQs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...nXw_6WQs</a>
Originally Posted By mawnck I'd gladly take the OC buses everywhere I go if they ran on something that remotely resembled a convenient schedule. When the travel time is 12 minutes (car) vs. 2 hours (buses) then there's no contest which one I'll take. I have literally never found myself in a situation where driving wasn't by far the better option, so I have never darkened the door of an OC bus.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'd gladly take the OC buses everywhere I go if they ran on something that remotely resembled a convenient schedule.*** I actually attempted to be a "commuter" in Orlando my first few days living there. I can't begin to tell you how silly that was of me. WIthin a week, I'd gone out and bought a car. ***I have literally never found myself in a situation where driving wasn't by far the better option, so I have never darkened the door of an OC bus.*** And therein lies the rub... Aside from the hilarious link above, I must say I live in a country with a completely maxed out transportation system. I can go where I want, when I want, by bus or train or monorail, and the system runs like clockwork. Schedules are posted in every train station and bus stop, and they are adhered to pretty well (inclement weather can mess things up, to be completely fair). WHY is that so impossible in America?
Originally Posted By DAR I only take Public Transportation when I'm down at WDW. Otherwise around here I'll drive, I like to be on my schedule not the buses.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy With the exception of about a half dozen major cities, mass transit doesn't really exist in the U.S. We put together a hodge podge of bus systems, maybe a novelty light rail system, and then call it mass transit. Most of these systems don't even attempt to serve the major commuting arteries that would best support a true mass transit network. I think the only way we'll see mass transit catch on in this country is to stop funding the expansion of highway commuting arteries, and fund mass transit systems in their place. When people are faced with gridlock while watching the commuter train speed along beside the highway, it won't take long for habits to adjust. We keep facilitating bad habits by funding infrastructure that is not sustainable in the long term.
Originally Posted By barboy ///the bus stops always have several people waiting that look disgusting; dirty, mentally deranged, morbidly obese, shifty, or visitors from the Third World./// Hello John Rocker
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<WHY is that so impossible in America?>> It's probably because most of our "cities" were designed around the automobile. When people moved out of the major urban centers and spread into the suburbs, they didn't move into areas that had access to mass transit, they spread out into areas only accessable by car. And it's only gotten worse and worse in the past 60 years. America has done absolutely NOTHING to promote metropolitan areas that are easily served by public transportation, and frankly, I don't see any good way to correct the problem today. To access all areas of the ridiculous urban sprawl that we call "cities" would make for a very messy and confusing transit system. I think Walt Disney was really on to something with his original EPCOT concept. We almost need to start from scratch with our city design, but that's probably not going to happen unless some disaster causes a mass migration of the population. (I suppose global warming caused floods could do that, but we better hope that doesn't happen anytime soon!) As an alternative option, I'd like to see our cities focus on a few areas - make them really well designed for public transportation, and then try and encourage people to move there. Make them really lovely places to live, with easy access to work, shopping and recreation - sort of a hybrid EPCOT on a small scale. That way, maybe we can slowly start pulling people back into city centers, and get rid of all the urban sprawl.
Originally Posted By DAR But the problem with mass transit is you have to adhere to a schedule. Just getting in your car and driving doesn't require that.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>We almost need to start from scratch with our city design, but that's probably not going to happen unless some disaster causes a mass migration of the population.<< Yes, I was thinking the same thing. With few exceptions, there is such urban sprawl that has taken place that it's very tough to come up with a public transportation system that makes sense in terms of maximizing efficiency. It would take a major shift in thinking for people to want to give up the typical tract home with the front and back yards in favor of multi-family dwellings. For nearly 100 years now, the transportation infrastructure in this country has been all about the automobile. In my city, I see public busses rolling around all day usually with a handful of passengers on board. We have no true downtown here, mostly a crazy quilt of light industrial parks here, random office complexes over there and so forth. And a large majority of folks commute to Silicon Valley or San Francisco each day. So to answer the question, do we need mass transit? Yes. Are we set up to make it efficient, affordable and useful? Not especially.
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly right. The automobile changed everything. Suburbia was born. White flight happened. I don't know that there's any easy way to fix that without radically changing where and how people live, as others have said.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Plus it has been so hard-wired into the American mindset forever that the dream is to have your own house, on your own little plot of land, with no neighbors homes attached to you, etc. It's tough to have that and an efficient mass transit system. They don't really work well together.
Originally Posted By ecdc I would love to take the bus to work. But my work is 10-15 minutes away by car, and it takes an hour by bus, because the schedules are so wacky. Now, that's in a suburban area. Downtown the light rail and buses are great and efficient. Took it to school everyday. But beyond that, not all that easy.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<It's tough to have that and an efficient mass transit system. They don't really work well together.>> No they don't, and I think that the only way to fix the problem will be to try and change that mindset. Our current style of living is just not sustainable - there's not enough land for us to just keep spreading out forever. At some point we need to stop and start pulling back - but to make that happen, we need to develop areas where people can live, work and play all within easy access to public transport.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I never knew how relaxing Public transportation could be until I was stationed overseas. American's don't know what they are missing...> Very true. Japan also has suburbs, does it not, X? Germany has suburbs, no? Yet they make it work much better than we do. Of course, I live in NYC, one of the few places where (certainly at rush hour), it is decidedly FASTER to take mass transit than to drive yourself, so I take mass transit every day. I live in Brooklyn, but even coming from the suburbs... they don't call the Long Island Expressway "the world's longest parking lot" for nothing. It just crawls at rush hour, and then, when you finally get into Manhattan (which you could have done much faster on the train), you have to pay an arm and a leg just to park. Then repeat on the way home. No thanks. Obviously, people do do it, but sane people take the train. Of course, NYC is unusual. Most places have such poor public transit, combined with the physical sprawl, that it does take a lot longer than driving, so most people choose driving. I understand that. Still, if other countries with suburbs can do it, I can't believe we can't at least do it BETTER than we currently do.
Originally Posted By hopemax > Plus it has been so hard-wired into the American mindset forever that the dream is to have your own house, on your own little plot of land, with no neighbors homes attached to you, etc < Speaking of which, DH & I entered an agreement on Monday to "help stimulate the economy." We are buying our first house! It's on a nice cul de sac, at the dead end of a street that shares with 2 other homes, and sits on .4 acres. So we did our best to separate ourselves from our neighbors, without being in the boonies. It's in a suburb of Denver, but a close suburb, unlike where we are now. DH will continue to commute to Downtown Denver via bus, and it is less than 3 miles from the future light rail line. We wanted to be a little closer than that, but 3 miles is okay. While most people's "must have" criteria is schools or house size, our "must have" was proximity to mass transportation.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Still, if other countries with suburbs can do it, I can't believe we can't at least do it BETTER than we currently do.>> True, but in some places it's a lot harder than others. In your example, Brooklyn is still a lot more densely populated than most areas of the country. The train stations can be situated quite close to where people actually live and still run efficiently. But as another example, take the neighborhood where my mother lives in Florida. Just to get to the front of the housing development, where I'm assumming they would place the mass transit stop, can be a walk of almost 20 minutes depending on where you are in the neighborhood - and her development isn't unique by any stretch. Each property is at least two acres - how do you efficiently build a public transport infrastructure to support places like that?
