Originally Posted By HyperTyper Hang on to your faith folks ... the man who sunk the Titanic on the big screen now threatens to sink Christianity itself with his startling revelation that Jesus' remains have been found. Well, the media is in a tizzy over this. Matt Lauer says James Cameron's 'shocking' new documentary claiming he has found the bones of Jesus and his family (wife Mary, and son) could rock Christianity to its core. Whatever. I'm not here to poke holes in Cameron's theory of whose body he has found. There are plenty of others doing that. What needs to be remebered is this: It DOESN'T MATTER. If Christians are serious in their belief that God has power over the elements, that he can restore life where there was death ... does anyone really think that someone finding the 'remains of Jesus' proves He doesn't live? My faith teaches that a person's spirit is one's identity, not one's body. The body is but a house for the spirit. How arrogant are we? Have these so-called scientists actually thought-through the science of their scientific debunkings? Why does a resurrection require the disappearance of the old body? Who is to say that the Almighty cannot restore to Jesus (or anyone else He wishes, for that matter) to a new body fashioned of purer, more refined, more perfect matter? What, is the the Christian God subject to a mandatory recycling program? Sure, the story of the Bible refers to an empty tomb, which SEEMS to contradict Cameron's findings. But we have found quirks in Biblical accounts before. I am not ready to dump the Biblical account on the basis of Cameron's vague, unidentified discovery anyway. But even IF Jesus' tomb isn't empty, that doesn't mean Jesus is still in there, any more than I plan on hanging around a graveyard with my OLD body for the rest of eternity when I go. What would be a sad disappointment is if the Christian world gets all tied up in knots over this. (Apparently, some already have.) There may be calls for silencing the blasphemy of this documentry. Not necessary. Neither Cameron nor a television network are going to rob Christianity of its belief, or steal the resurrection if its wonder and possibility.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy I Googled this last night after seeing it in a work segment, and some people say that this is ridiculous because Jesus was a very popular name at the time, and Mary was an even more outrageously popular name.
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Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I don't need James Cameron to make me question Christianity. I find myself doubting if there is a God, or at least a kind God, when I see my brother slowly and painfully dieing from pancreatic cancer." Right there with you. Sorry about your brother. My 39 year old brother lost his sight Christmas 2003. In a span of a couple of weeks, he went from normal vision to being able to see only shapes, some colors and light and dark. Lost his job, went on permanent disability, and presently is finding out just how many apartment complexes and private landlords don't want anything to do with HUD vouchers. God wants him to go through this why??????? It has torn up my mother and made everyone in our family have to adjust their lives to be able to help him when needed. Not much from help God, though. My brother, who has adjusted better than anyone has a right to expect, still though spends a lot of time wondering what he did to have this happen.
Originally Posted By jonvn "when I see my brother slowly and painfully dieing from pancreatic cancer." I'm very sorry about your brother. It takes things like this for people to finally realize the ridiculous nature of what they think god is. Randy Newman has a song "That's Why I Love Mankind." You might want to give it a listen sometime.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan My father is also battling pancreatic cancer as we speak. This weekend, he told me that it actually has restored his faith, not diminished it. I'm NOT trying to say anyone's reaction to an illness, the things life throws at us or anything is wrong. We feel what we feel. My dad explained it that it's really more of an appreciation for the life he has had, appreciating God for giving him the family he has, the time he has. Of course, he hopes that he has more time, that he'll somehow be able to get surgery. But mainly, he isn't asking God why he got this thing, and I'm not either. I've struggled with faith in my lifetime, so i don't have the answers. But I've never been big on the concept that "God has this big plan for all of us" where every moment of every day is scripted -- an illness here, something joyous there. Finding bones someplace really shouldn't diminish nor threaten anyone's faith, any more than some physical "proof" of God would produce meaningful faith.
Originally Posted By DlandJB James Cameron loves telling stories. He hasn't figured out the difference between a documentary and a good fiction. Along with, as someone else mentioned, the names of Joseph, Mary (Mariam) and Jesus (actually in Hebrew more like Joshua) were very common names. A biblical scholar has pointed out that it would be very unlikely for a family from Galilee to be buried enmass in Jerusalem. Joseph likely died many years before Jesus' ministry so why would they move his bones to Jerusalem? Most likely, like the Shroud of Turin and other supposed "relics" they have no connection to the historical Jesus at all but if connected at all were created either as objects of faith not unlike wearing a cross, or as bogus icons designed to make a buck. And jonvn, you've made your opinion about religion very clear in thread after thread. Please leave this one to discussing the actual topic rather than hijacking yet another thread with a repetative regurgitation of the same bile over and over again.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<My dad explained it that it's really more of an appreciation for the life he has had, appreciating God for giving him the family he has, the time he has. Of course, he hopes that he has more time, that he'll somehow be able to get surgery. But mainly, he isn't asking God why he got this thing, and I'm not either.>> Of course everyone confronts this thing differently, and everyone confronts it at various stages in many ways. My brother had accepted from the first that he had a death sentence, and he never expecting his remaining time to be very long. As subsequent negative results rolled in it became very clear to him that death was imminent. He did everything he could to let people know that he was OK with them and OK with whatever God did. Then he found he would not be graced with either a short or painless death. While he was still conscious he could accept this. Once he started to slip from consciousness it became a whole different story. When I visited my brother he started begging me to tell "them" to stop. He had decided he really didn’t want to die. The hospital should take away all of the crap they were pumping into his veins and just give him what was needed to stay alive. Now he can’t talk… he just thrashes in bed and calls out nonsense and ends up hurting himself more by falling out of bed and onto the floor. He pulls out his catheters and creates just about as much havoc as he can. We’ve been told this is normal. That my brother’s experiences are not at all unusual for someone approaching death. The medical explanation doesn’t do squat fore me. I know he is going to die. I’ve experienced the fact that it will not be painless. But my God… if you are going to take him at least have the same courtesy that we experienced when pulling our children’s baby teeth. Yank hard to make sure you do the job, but do it as gently and with as little pain as possible. Wow… I’ve written way too much too late at night. I hope much of it is comprehensible, If not, send me an e-mail ad I will update the documents as needed. -Jerry
Originally Posted By HyperTyper >>> find myself doubting if there is a God, or at least a kind God, when I see my brother slowly and painfully dieing from pancreatic cancer. Many people have struggled with similar situations. The interesting thing is that of the people I have known who have suffered and lost the most (including their loved ones or their own lives), THEY are the ones with the greatest faith in and gratitude to God- far greater than mine, and my life has been fairly smooth. Weird math, that is, but it's true. Sometimes, when bad things happen to good people, we fail to see the purpose or justice in it. (Does there need to be a purpose?) But when I look at the lives of the people with the most rock-solid faith, their lives have truly been filled with the most difficulty. Could there be a link between suffering, and loss, and growth? Perhaps. I don't know a whole lot about intense suffering, but I do know that the times in my life when things have been the bumpiest are the times in my life when I've been the least selfish, and the most reliant on God to get me through it ... and that has included the dark, lonely, gut-wrenching times when I've seen people suffer and die. Life is good, despite all of its darkness. I believe that God, like any parent, must surely wince as he sees His children get hurt. However, like any parent, He knows he needs to step back sometimes and not try to save us from life. Does He allow too much? Or does He know the greater the challenge, the deeper our growth and the greater our capacity to help and inspire others? My greatest heroes ... and inspirations ... are those who have endured the most- good people like those mentioned here. As for whether there even is a God or not ... I honestly don't know from where else the amazing people I've known in my life could possibly come. They bring heaven to a pretty tough world. Their lives, surely, are more than mere accidents.
Originally Posted By DlandJB There is a good book I'd recommend, RT called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" written by Harold Kushner. It's an easy read and helps make some sense out of things that just don't make sense.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 RT? Sorry to derail this thread but what anxiety med's do they have your brother on?
Originally Posted By Lisann22 """Now he can’t talk… he just thrashes in bed and calls out nonsense and ends up hurting himself more by falling out of bed and onto the floor. He pulls out his catheters and creates just about as much havoc as he can. We’ve been told this is normal. That my brother’s experiences are not at all unusual for someone approaching death.""" This is quite disturbing to me and I'm having a hard time thinking that the staff would believe. I would insist on knowing what anxiety meds they have him on and the dose. My grandma experienced horrible dreams from the morphine but with the right balance of anxiety meds they were able to counteract that. Sorry this is so painful for you all.
Originally Posted By jonvn "And jonvn, you've made your opinion about religion very clear in thread after thread. Please leave this one to discussing the actual topic " Don't tell me what to talk about. What I posted was on topic.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Then he found he would not be graced with either a short or painless death. While he was still conscious he could accept this. Once he started to slip from consciousness it became a whole different story." This is an extremely common reaction. When actually faced with something like this, the little lies people tell themselves that make them believe start to fall away. I've got relatives in the health care industry, and I've seen an entire generation of my family die. People do different things. But when coming face to face what their religion teaches, faith falls away to hard reality.
Originally Posted By friendofdd Jonvn, feel free to post whatever you wish within community standards. But, hopefully, you realize some of your posts about religion or religious people make you appear to be an anti-religious bigot.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Veering way back on topic here, I have read that this "startling new finding" actually happened in 1980 and was debunked back then.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 """This is an extremely common reaction. When actually faced with something like this, the little lies people tell themselves that make them believe start to fall away. I've got relatives in the health care industry, and I've seen an entire generation of my family die.""" This is the complete opposite of what I have experienced. I'm not going to get into a one upmanship on how many people I've cared for and seen die but it's been plenty. There are many wonderful hospice books other that will explain the process of dying and what to expect.
Originally Posted By jonvn "But, hopefully, you realize some of your posts about religion or religious people make you appear to be an anti-religious bigot." Hopefully you realize that statements such as this make you seem like a religious bigot. It works both ways. If you don't like my opinons, fine. You don't have to call me names, unless of course you are a bigot. Now, go back to the topic, where I will post what I care to, within community standards. Thank you.
Originally Posted By jonvn "This is the complete opposite of what I have experienced" Like I said, people do different things. I've seen both. Mostly, I've seen what I've described. It should not make you feel bad to feel like you've lost faith or gotten angry, or are confounded by this, because many many people do the same exact thing.
