Originally Posted By ecdc As a former Christian who still loves the pure teachings of Jesus, I've long been baffled at the insistence from some quarters that the United States is a "Christian nation." Not baffled because it's historically inaccurate (though it is) but because the quarters crying this mantra seem to almost always push for distinctly un-Christian policies - harsh, even cruel immigration laws, no universal healthcare, no prison reform, pro death penalty, pro torture, pro war, etc. I read the New Testament at least half-a-dozen times as a believer, and Jesus' message is pretty unmistakable. But it struck me today that when people say the United States was founded as a "Christian nation," they don't mean it was founded on the teachings of Jesus. Rather, it's more of this increasingly frequent use of coded language, meaning, "The United States was founded as a white, anglo-saxon nation of European immigrants." In short, people who look like me who I can relate to. I don't think most people who claim the U.S. is a Christian nation are deliberately racist, but I think it's part of this larger sense that "things, they are a changin'" and there's a lot of fear and paranoia around that. It's why we get "I want my country back," and the birther movement, etc. "How can this black guy with the funny sounding name be a legitimate President in the Land of the Free? It just isn't possible!"
Originally Posted By gadzuux I think you've got it exactly right. These people need a lot of affirmation - a collective sense of "everybody believes all the same stuff that I do". It's not true - it never was, but their beliefs are sometimes tenuous at best, so they deliberately delude themselves that it's somehow mainstream. These are the same people who will repeat the mantra that "we're a center-right" country, all while conveniently ignoring that 'we' as a country voted for Obama and all those democrats in the house and senate. It's a vain conceit, and one that's easily disproven - if only they'd listen to reason. But they won't - they don't want to consider any facts that run counter to the rose-colored world they pretend they live in. And wouldn't you know it - these same 'christians' loudly proclaim their support for war, torture, the death penalty, draconian immigration policies, prison rape, and oppose social programs that feed and clothe the poor. As always, christian means whatever they say it does. Anyone can be a christian - it's easy!
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Well, Sarah Palin has a new book coming out in November, which apparently will cover the "Christian nation" myth which she and other tea bagging wingnuts believe is real. When you peel back the layers of "Christian faith" and get to the core of their actual beliefs and arguments, you'll find the ever so obvious stench of fear-based bigotry. It seems to be driving every single hateful rant these folks are spouting now, especially at their rallies and fundraisers. Obama becoming President was simply the tipping point. As was previously reported about the Maine GOP being hijacked by the tea baggers over on HuffPost, "The inmates are now running the asylum."
Originally Posted By magnet >>>"And wouldn't you know it - these same 'christians' loudly proclaim their support for war, torture, the death penalty, draconian immigration policies, prison rape, and oppose social programs that feed and clothe the poor."<<< This comment is so far off-base that you should hang your head in shame. Do you really believe that Christians support prison rape? If you do, then you are the one who's deluded. You are participating in the same type of lying that you are complaining about from right-wingers! Hypocrite!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The "prison rape" part may have been hyperbole, but the rest was sadly on the money for too many people who loudly call themselves Christians.
Originally Posted By ecdc I'd assumed gad was talking about the Abu Ghraib scandal. Certainly there were plenty of Christians, both conservative and liberal, appalled at that. But there were some on the conservative side who took a "they're terrorists so they got what they deserved" attitude.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Do you really believe that Christians support prison rape?*** Some do. Some non-Christians, too. ***If you do, then you are the one who's deluded*** Nope. I've read plenty of comments that fully back this assertion. Some joking about how funny it is to know that their villian-du-jour will be raped, and some gleeful over the possibility.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Here's another one for you. In the recent Texas GOP primary, there were several "Ballot Propositions" asked of voters. Since this was the Republican Party primary and not a general election, these were more or less referendums on what position the state Republican Party should take, rather than votes on a specific law to be enacted. One of them was Ballot Proposition #4, which read: "Public Acknowledgment of God - The use of the word 'God', prayers, ... should be allowed at public gatherings and public educational institutions, as well as be permitted on government buildings and property." YES OR NO The official results of the GOP Primary vote was that over 95% of Republican voters approved of this. The short title of Prop #4 was "Public Acknowledgment of God." When I first read the title, I thought that it's actually something I could get on board with. I have no problem decades-old crosses on public property, with our money having "In God We Trust" printed on it, or a public meeting starting with a prayer. I don't think that God needs to be completely expunged from official public life. Yet, I was surprised that over 95% of Republican voters would be in favor of this, or really any particular position. That's an awful large percentage of even loosely like-minded people to agree on anything. What troubled me was the implementation of such a proposition. I would have made an educated guess that most people voting in favor of a "Public Acknowledgment of God" were doing so specifically in the context of *their* god being acknowledged, to the exclusion of all others. Of course, part and parcel of this mentality is the absolute knowledge that of all the gods out there, your particular one is the actual one, true God. I have to confess something: this post involves somewhat of a set-up. The "..." in the quoted text of Ballot Proposition #4 above wasn't that way in the actual proposition - the ... actually read "and the Ten Commandments." That is, the 95%+ of Republican primary voters in Texas that voted in favor of this were not voting just to allow god to be mentioned in the public square, but their particular God. They're all for freedom of religion, as long as you agree with them.
Originally Posted By Mr X The more I learn, the more I fear we are on the precipice of a new Dark Age.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Refreshing. We don't get to see enough Christian bashing threads. Are there bad Christians? Yes. Just as there are bad human beings.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Refreshing. We don't get to see enough Christian bashing threads.<< Except no one bashed Christians. I specifically addressed a minority of people who use the term "Chriatian nation" as coded language to mean they want a nation they are comfortable with, run by peole who look and think like them. There are both conservative and liberal Chriatians who don't fit this description. But you completely ignored that for the straw man. Care to address the actual topic at hand?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Except I didn't say anything about liberals or conservatives; if only I had a brain. (Subtle strawman reference.) Yes, some very close minded people feel like a "Christian nation" should mean people who look like and think like them. Is this a new idea?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Except I didn't say anything about liberals or conservatives<< Well since you completely missed the meaning and point of the OP, which was very clear, I figured why not make it even clearer.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Funny, that is exactly what I was doing when I opened the thread*** One would wonder, then, why you decided to open the thread at all (let alone comment). But I digress... ***Yes, some very close minded people feel like a "Christian nation" should mean people who look like and think like them*** I reject the notion that America is a "Christian nation" on the face of it. But you could substitute "Buddist nation", "Hindu nation", "Jewish nation" etc., and the same sentiment applies all the same. I appreciate beyond measure the fact that America was FOUNDED on the principle of separation of Church and State. Naturally the freedom to believe whatever the heck you want is a core component of that ideology, and I support it wholeheartedly. Therefore MY problem is when a bunch of Fundies (and I would say the same about ANY other group, except as we know it's the Fundies who are doing it or at least trying to oh so vigorously) start trying to meddle with history and attempt to claim that America should be in any way shape or form "Christian" as it pertains to national identity OR policy, and further attempt to claim that that was what the Founding Fathers had in mind all along. Examples such as the one SuperDry pointed out scare the crap out of me, anger me greatly, and make me VERY concerned about the condition of the Supreme Court when or if any of these "proposals" make their way up the judicial ladder. You can turn around and claim "majority" all you want, but if the balance of religious folks in America swings towards a Muslim majority you can bet your bottom dollar that these same religious activists will change their tune instantaneously and insist that America is all about separating religion from the governing of the nation. True?
Originally Posted By fkurucz FWIW, we have some very "Christian" traditions embedded into our government. Take the swearing in if the President, which is done with a Bible (granted, this is tradition). Nevertheless this is not done in other countries. Take Mexico, an overwhelmingly Catholic nation. The Mexican president is sworn in by involing the constitution. Then on the other hand few Americans get Good Friday off as a paid holiday. When I worked at Hewlett Packard I was always amused by the fact that our colleagues in HP India did get Good Friday off while we in the US did not. Go figure. Some might argue that the lack of a establishing a state church was done because there were so many Protestant denominations to begin with. Maybe, maybe not.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper The Pilgrims fled England not for freedom OF religion but freedom to practice there very Christian-based religion as they saw fit as opposed to how the State wanted it to be followed. That said, I don't think religion has any place in the day to day affairs of our government. Though I'm also not opposed to a community putting up a Christmas Tree...or a Menorah...in their town square.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Though I'm also not opposed to a community putting up a Christmas Tree...or a Menorah...in their town square.>> I am - I think we as a nation need to make a very clear line in the sand between religion and government. For to long we have been slipping towards a Christian Theocracy in this country, and I think we as a people need to do everything in our power to stop that from happening. America is not a country of one religion, and never has been, and if it takes banning all public displays of religious icons to help make that distinction clear, then I'm all for it.
Originally Posted By Daannzzz The problem with many religions and government is that if you give them an inch they want a yard. You give them the yard and they want a mile.
