Originally Posted By ecdc If you missed it, today the Pope basically savaged libertarian laissez-faire capitalism with a call for direct state involvement in correcting wealth inequality instead of just nice platitudes about giving to charity and being all sweet and all. >>Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic systems.<< And >>How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?<< <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/27/world/europe/in-major-document-pope-francis-present-his-vision.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11...ion.html</a>
Originally Posted By TheRedhead I grew up Catholic. I am no longer. But now that I have kids, I have been introducing them to church. And by golly this pope is making me giddy. For years I would go to mass for weddings and funerals, but i wouldn't take communion because I hadn't been to confession in for ever. That is the rule. My parents said I was silly, but there are things that had so been drummed into my head by maniacal nuns that I couldn't shake it. Then I see this quote on CNN - ""Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason," Francis said. "The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak."" <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/26/pope-calls-for-big-changes-in-the-church/?hpt=hp_c2">http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/...pt=hp_c2</a> Wow. That is just beautiful. Bring on the change, glacial as it may be.
Originally Posted By TheRedhead I grew up Catholic. I am no longer. But now that I have kids, I have been introducing them to church. And by golly this pope is making me giddy. For years I would go to mass for weddings and funerals, but i wouldn't take communion because I hadn't been to confession in for ever. That is the rule. My parents said I was silly, but there are things that had so been drummed into my head by maniacal nuns that I couldn't shake it. Then I see this quote on CNN - ""Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason," Francis said. "The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak."" <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/26/pope-calls-for-big-changes-in-the-church/?hpt=hp_c2">http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/...pt=hp_c2</a> Wow. That is just beautiful. Bring on the change, glacial as it may be.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Pope Francis: Best. Christian. Ever.*** Wow. I kinda thought Jesus would manage to hang on, but there ya have it. All hail the new messiah!
Originally Posted By cmpaley Jesus isn't/wasn't a Christian. If you think about what a Christian is, namely, a believer in Christ, it makes no sense. Jesus was a Jew who is the Messiah (Christ) who founded a new religion which is now known as Christianity. It was originally known as The Way. Currently, the head of His religion in the Catholic Church is Pope Francis, Bishop of Rome. BTW, hey, allo you lot Missed ye terribly! Bow ties are cool. Fish fingers and custard.
Originally Posted By Mr X Ah. Fancy loophole you found there! Okay, I'll give you that (although it's a stretch...does that mean Joseph Smith was no Mormon and Muhammad wasn't a Muslim, either?), but even with that argument I'd wager Saint Peter might have a bone to pick with the OP.
Originally Posted By ecdc The main crux of Reza Aslan's book "Zealot" is that Jesus was a Jew, and that understanding him must be viewed through that lens. Had Jesus survived, perhaps he would've been considered something else. Most scholars would argue that the group of Jesus's followers that organized in the forty years after his death (around when the first gospels were written) looked almost nothing like the original group of followers who surrounded Jesus during his brief rebellion against Rome.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet, not a founder. Joseph Smith similarly so. They believed they were passing on God's revelation to the world. Jesus came with a different mission. He was more than just a prophet bearing a Message. He was Prophet, King, Priest and Victim all wrapped into One as well as the God who reconciled to world to Himself. I love what Pope Francis is doing. It's amusing to watch the philosophical pretzels conservative Catholics have to wrap themselves into in order to understand what the Holy Father is teaching. It's great to finally see.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet, not a founder. Joseph Smith similarly so*** Yet they both founded religions (or religions were founded per their instructions, anyway). In any case, I agree with you that watching the wealth-minded conservative religious types work themselves into a frenzy is worth the price of admission alone. I have absolutely no faith in any formal notions of a modern day "god", but this guy clearly has the golden rule in mind and that applies to all.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I see an unexplained heart attack coming on. You don't mess with the church conservatives. The last one that tried lasted about two months. Signed...a catholic that isn't that hopeful. Wish I could be. I was going to say X-catholic, but they tell me, once a catholic...always a catholic.
Originally Posted By fkurucz John XXIII lasted a while and while he was before the time of many here, he was a much bigger "apple cart tipper" than Francis.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox While the new pope's efforts should be applauded, he still managed to take over half of the world's population and throw them under the bus. The Catholic Church will never fully enter the 21st century and make a lasting impact until it finally addresses the devastating global poverty expansion and its ties to women's second class status. By conveniently ignoring the New Testament history of Mary as traveling evangelist post-crucifixion, the Vatican will remain an exclusive all-male political empire forever stuck in the middle ages, no matter how many nods to Saint Francis, one of the first Catholic feminists, the new pope espouses from the pulpit. Badmouthing unfettered capitalism is essential. But by not offering solid concrete ways to combat it, like working to give women more rights thereby helping to lift them out of poverty, slavery, and servitude, the words fall flat. The Catholic Church could become a shining beacon to the world by changing their stance on women's roles in the hierarchy. That would be immeasurably helpful. But until that time, it's all basically lip service and slick marketing in an effort to increase their dwindling popularity.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I understand your frustration but you don't change centuries of tradition overnight. Baby steps! Houdini was the last of the great magicians.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox I'm not frustrated with the rate of change. I'm frustrated because I don't believe all of the change is genuine. The boys don't want to give up their control. They like being in charge and not sharing their power with the girls. And that probably goes double for any bishop or cardinal who gets elected into the top slot. Francis might be more progressive than his predecessors but I'm not confident that he's more feminist. Given the inherent sexist nature of the Vatican hierarchy, I would highly doubt it.
