Originally Posted By gadzuux <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/01/24/international/i013649S80.DTL" target="_blank">http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti cle.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/01/24/international/i013649S80.DTL</a> (01-24) 07:30 PST STRASBOURG, France (AP) -- The head of a European investigation into alleged CIA secret prisons in Europe said Tuesday that evidence pointed to the existence of a system of "outsourcing" of torture by the United States, and that it was highly likely European governments were aware of it. His interim report, based partly on results of national investigations and recent press reports, did not break new ground and largely repeated his previous claims that U.S. policies in the war on terror contravene international law on human rights. Allegations that the CIA hid and interrogated key al-Qaida suspects at Soviet-era compounds in Eastern Europe were first reported Nov. 2 in The Washington Post. "There is a great deal of coherent, convergent evidence pointing to the existence of a system of "relocation" or "outsourcing" of torture," Marty said in the report to the Council of Europe, the human rights watchdog on whose behalf he is investigating. "Acts of torture or severe violation of detainees' dignity through the administration of inhuman or degrading treatment are carried outside national territory and beyond the authority of national intelligence services," Marty said. He added that more than 100 suspects may have been transferred to countries where they faced torture or ill treatment in recent years. "The entire continent is involved," Marty told the Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly, a body comprising several hundred national lawmakers. "It is highly unlikely that European governments, or at least their intelligence services, were unaware." [Individual instances and tales of people snatched from the street and transported to god-knows-where by the CIA for torture.] The Council of Europe launched its probe after allegations surfaced in November that U.S. agents interrogated key al-Qaida suspects at clandestine prisons in eastern Europe and transported some suspects through Europe to other countries. " ... it has been proved that individuals have been abducted, deprived of their liberty and all rights and transported to different destinations in Europe, to be handed over to countries in which they have suffered degrading treatment and torture," he said. If eventually uncovered, the detention centers would likely be small cells that could be easily hidden, he added. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now we should hear from dyed-in-the-wool bush supporters who will say that torturing suspects is fit and proper, followed by hypotheticals about bombs going off in fifteen minutes. But there are a couple of points that they cannot double-talk their way through - the united states is now on par with other nations who routinely violate human rights. And bush lied. His actual quote was along the lines of "we don't use torture". It's his version of "read my lips". While 'technically' he may be more or less correct - in that we transport these people to locations in which they are tortured by non-US citizens. But who knows how extensive our involvement in this process is? Given the reports from abu ghraib and guantanamo bay, we may actually be directly involved, but even if we aren't, we are still complicit. "WE" meaning you, me and every other american. Makes you proud, huh. Every day, week and month that passes with the bush administration deepens my embarrassment of our nation. Is it 2008 yet?
Originally Posted By cmpaley How dare you question our leaders? This is just rank disloyalty. You wnat the terrorists to kill every single one of us, don't you, you radical left-wing, terrorist -loving, God-hating, American-hating communist socialist moonbat you! Don't you know that: George W. Bush is god and Rush Limbaugh is his prophet? *removes tongue from cheek*
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Of course we outsourced it. Imagine the uproar if we did it ourselves. Did it take a study to figure this out?
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Imagine the uproar if we did it ourselves. << We don't have to imagine it. It's already happened. Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo Bay. >> Did it take a study to figure this out? << The study is being conducted by the european union. They want to know how much they're implicated in this. >> Of course we outsourced it. << Implying that you're okay with this? International standards of decency, human rights, and dignity don't apply to the united states? Criminal acts can be excused if they're generated by the republican party?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Well, when I was 10 and my brother was 7 I learned that torture was sometimes an effective means of getting to the truth. My wife proves that to be true on a regular basis. People have been punished for what happend at Abu Ghraib. But, thanks for reminding us of it. And, frankly, I don't consider what we saw in the pictures as torture. I had worse than that in my fraternity initiation. Hell, I had worse than that my freshman year at band camp.
Originally Posted By bboisvert <<People have been punished for what happend at Abu Ghraib.>> Only the lower officers. The contractors giving the orders were not punished. And people responsible for creating those policies have been promoted. <<I had worse than that in my fraternity initiation. Hell, I had worse than that my freshman year at band camp.>> Except that you basically agreed to that as part of the experience. Otherwise, you would have went to the police. At Abu Ghraib, it was the "police" doing the torturing.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Do you apologize to the families of those killed by Muslims who were radicalized by how we have been treating our prisoners of war?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper As soon as I get an apology for all of the Americans and other nationalities who have been targets for decades prior to the Iraq invasion and who will continue to be targets. If that happens I will lead the world in perfect harmony and buy them all a Coke.
Originally Posted By bboisvert Color me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that an apology won't come very easily when someone sics a great big dog on a naked man and then takes a picture of it.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Well, on behalf of America I am sorry that we hurt their feelings. << How about apologizing for the people that we killed during 'interrogation'. Not just one or two, but at least FOUR that can be directly attributed to the CIA alone. Were they torturing people to death in your band camp? Why minimize this? Why close your eyes to what your own government is doing? >> As soon as I get an apology for all of the Americans and other nationalities who have been targets for decades prior to the Iraq invasion and who will continue to be targets. << So they deserve whatever they get - is that it? Do you really think this is all one-sided? We're the white-hatted good guys and those muslims are out to destroy our way of life unless we destroy them first. You see the world in simplistic terms 'wahoo'.
Originally Posted By woody >>" ... it has been proved that individuals have been abducted, deprived of their liberty and all rights and transported to different destinations in Europe, to be handed over to countries in which they have suffered degrading treatment and torture," he said. If eventually uncovered, the detention centers would likely be small cells that could be easily hidden, he added.<< I have two things to say. 1. Have you seen the movie "Hostel"? 2. Do you really think Europe is so great? THIS IS HAPPENING IN EUROPE, THE SUPER LIBERAL CONTINENT!!!
Originally Posted By peeaanuut I wonder what the ad looked like for this..... Wanted: Torcherers and killers. Paid up front. No names. Must show proof of residency.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Our government has done far worse in history. To not see that is to be simple.
Originally Posted By bboisvert <<Our government has done far worse in history. To not see that is to be simple.>> ..and I'm goung to surmise that it wasn't right back then either. History teaches us nothing?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Two bombs stopped a war. It was horrific but in the big scheme of things may have saved millions of lives. If history has taught us anything it should be to act before it is too late. Imagine if someone stopped Hitler before millions of Jews were killed. If a couple of Bin Laden's folks were interrogated/tortured or what have you prior to 9/11 maybe those numbers would still be a phone number and nothing more. I know it isn't that simple. I know there are huge morale and ethical mountains. But, I'd rather spank my child silly for walking off by himself one time than never have a chance to hug him again. This is a different world now and I'm not sure how you go about protecting the public anymore. What is reasonable and what isn't? I have exaggerated quite a bit in my last few posts but that was to get a point across. There is no black and white anymore...and I'm not sure there ever was. It just seemed that way because we didn't know all the facts.
Originally Posted By bboisvert <<I'd rather spank my child silly for walking off by himself one time than never have a chance to hug him again.>> Not that I agree with corporal punishment at all, but that's how I feel about America these days. Something/someone needs to be corrected. An allegory... The child (America) needs love and attention from it's parents (citizens). For too long now, the babysitter (the president and congress) have said that they've been "taking care of" the child. The babysitter told the parents that their child would be safer being cared for by him. But while the child mindlessly watched TV, the babysitter and his friends raided the parent's jewelry box, looked at their private things, and trashed their neighborhood. When are the parents going to come home? "...Government of the people, by the people, for the people..."
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>If history has taught us anything it should be to act before it is too late. Imagine if someone stopped Hitler before millions of Jews were killed.<< Imagine trying not to foster the environment where a Hitler could arise in the first place.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>If history has taught us anything it should be to act before it is too late. Imagine if someone stopped Hitler before millions of Jews were killed.<< Imagine trying not to foster the environment where a Hitler could arise in the first place.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Who cares if we have TERRORISTS tortured in another country. I don't for a second. Maybe you will feel different Gadzuux if a terrorist wipes out SF and kills a few hundred thousand people. Maybe then you will stop worrying about America being the worlds bad guy and understand you have to take certain steps to protect the nation. Why do liberals not undderstand that you will never be safe by treating evil killers like they are people who deserve respect?
