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Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>But I'll be back in either January or, more likely, early February. So, maybe we could do something then?<<< Sure. Just hit me up. We might be starting a project in mid-March, so February could be tight, but January will be less so. >>>We could meet and just bash magnet the whole time?<<< No Magnet bashing. He kind of fades from memory 30 seconds later. Like a Sponge Bob cartoon. >>>Or I could teach you my stalking techniques for mid-level Disney managers? (there's a guy that works merchandise at DCA who's on my radar right now! I think I know how to stalk him through his brother!)<<< Now THAT could be fun. Never stalked anyone before, but I'm happy to watch you give it a go. Or document the whole thing for YouTube...
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Greg - thanks for this. It really has reminded me how much people's opinions vary. For me, WDW's SM is just a notch higher than Raging Spirits, Primeval Whirl or Indiana Jones et le Temple du Peril. It must be nortalgia working there. Then I read - "It's heretical to say this, but here I go: Walt Disney World's "It's A Small World" is the best." - oh, man, no way in my books. I would rather ride DLP's version anyday, followed by DL's. The upgrade was good at WDW compared to what was once there, but I am afraid I really do feel WDW took an e-ticket and made it into a C or D. And maybe you got lucky, but this time last year we found the MK to be filthy. DLP even exceeded in the cleanliness stakes and that says something. But I do agree with your view of the treehouse, I think the MK version is currently better than DL or DLP (it used to be DLP - but the lack of maintenance for years has really hit this one hard). But I really do look forward to reading more in the future. FWIW - I have a real downer on the MK, I will admit that. I would honestly rather spend a day in any other Disney park in the world (yep even HKDL, DCA, or WDSP) than the decrepit MK - even my wife feels that way, and she is not such a Disney nerd. But I love DAK, Epcot and some aspects of DSH and I look forward to hearing your views.
Originally Posted By gmaletic Wow, you'd rather spend a day in Walt Disney Studios Paris than the Magic Kingdom? That's saying something. >I would rather ride DLP's [Small World] anyday, followed by DL's. DLP's Small World is my least favorite, though I'll admit it's for primarily subjective reasons. The Mary Blair/Rolly Crump aesthetic has been partially tossed aside in favor of inspiration by a French illustrator--can't remember his name--and it doesn't work as well for me. And I think having the Small World child faces on the Sphinx and Statue of Liberty is creepy! Thanks for your comments, though...I'll get to work on finishing up that 2nd part of the column.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "Wow, you'd rather spend a day in Walt Disney Studios Paris than the Magic Kingdom? That's saying something." Yep, at least with WDS I know what I am going to get. There is quality live entertainment, excellent e tickets, it is clean, there are no maintenance issues I have seen, and there is room for growth. The MK is mutton dressed up as lamb. It is slowly dying and being passed off as the epitome of Disney to rubes who do not know the difference - Disney passes it off as the entree. I view the WDS as a side dish to add variety to the whole meal. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. I can go and watch Moteurs Action, see Cinemagique, Animagique, and Armageddon, ride RNRC, Crush Coaster and the Tram Tour and savour them all as the best versions (or unique versions) of what is offered elsewhere. I ride PotC, until recently the HM, IASW, SM, Buzz, BTM, and many more at the MK and feel they are the lesser versions. the only reason I venture to the MK is for nostalia of CoP, Country Bears, Hall of Presidents, and the peoplemover - and in all those cases, there are significant maintenance needs for those WDW favs of mine. Leaving two clone attractions that I feel are the better versions - Splash and Wishes. So for me, I always walk out of the MK disatisfied. And I always leave WDSP asking why people give it such a hard time. At least the last 10 years at WDSP I have seen continual improvement where at the MK I have seen the continuation of deprivation.
Originally Posted By gmaletic >At least the last 10 years at WDSP I have seen continual improvement where at the MK I have seen the continuation of deprivation. Certainly, that's hard to argue with. In the case of WDSP it's hard to give it "credit" for its improvement: the only place it could go was up. In the case of MK, however, a very credible case can be made that it hasn't gotten better over the past twenty-five years, and in fact has gotten worse. So I don't disagree with you there. (I'm trying to think of a single thing that's an improvement in that time period, and all I can come up with is the addition of Splash Mountain.) As indicated in my article, I definitely don't consider MK "bad" in any way; there still a lot I like about it. But there's no doubt it's suffered at the expense of the rest of the resort.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo That's where you and I whole heartedly agree. Some people laugh at me when I say I prefer DLR or DLRP to WDW because in their books, bigger is better. To me, although I like WDW and the plethora of offerings, I prefer the intamacy of the smaller resorts and having more go on in a smaller area. Seeing concerts in Disneyland used to be a big highlight. Buying a seperate ticket to HOB has eroded that somewhat. From a business perspective, I know it makes sense. From a magic perspective, I don't like it. Another problem I have with the MK is the upcharge events. These things are free at DL, DLP and TDL, but at the MK you can pay extra to celebrate Christmas. I have an issue with that. I know you can go to DHS for Osborne Lights, or Epcot for Holidays around the World, and that's great. But why charge extra for MVMCP? This is too much and therefore we boycott the event (I would rather they just increased the price of general admission media across the board to recoup costs).
Originally Posted By gmaletic I have a massive problem with the upcharge events, myself. I'm about to go experience my first "Very Merry Christmas Party," so I'll comment on that once I've had a chance to experience it. Getting back to the earlier discussion about the lack of MK improvement over the past twenty-five years...does anyone think that the fact that they switched from tickets to passports at that precise time is a coincidence? I don't. Once "parks" become revenue generators and "rides" become costs, it seems inevitable. (DL fans: don't wish too hard for that third park...it could happen to you, too!)
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed Greg - totally. I think just two parks in Anaheim would be grand, until there is no room for growth (a 3rd park could be ok for DL's 100th). There are some who are rooted to bring back ticket books. Personally I would not want to see that happen, but I understand the debate that making attractions revenue generators in their own right limits degredation and entices Disney to keep things in tip top condition, or make sure new attractions are totally enduring over the longer term.
Originally Posted By MPierce A civil discussion taking place, how refreshing. Dave you are able to compare DL, DLP, and the MK. Most people do not have that opportunity, so I certainly value your opinions. When a person can't make comparisons like that they are automaticly handicapped in a discussion about quality. gmaletic has certainly been around also, so I value his opinions also. I think they come from a different perspective than someone who spends constant time at WDW. As an example the last time I was at MK I rode the Haunted Mansion three times. The sound worked perfectly each time. There were never any stops while we were riding. Everything pretty much looked the same way as they have for the last ten years. People have been complaining about the HM for ages however during my short visit it was fine. Same goes for the cleanliness of the parks. I go in late January when it is less crowded, so therefore the parks are much cleanier. I really don't have any other time of the year to compare it to. Let's face it the MK pretty much is the magical place it is advertised as when you have nothing to compare it with. I really enjoyed gmaletic's article because I found myself agreeing with so many of his comments. He managed to get across his complaints without sounding like a Disney hater. Sometimes I feel like not posting here because I come off sounding so negative. >> Another problem I have with the MK is the upcharge events. These things are free at DL, DLP and TDL, but at the MK you can pay extra to celebrate Christmas. << I so agree with that. >> Getting back to the earlier discussion about the lack of MK improvement over the past twenty-five years...does anyone think that the fact that they switched from tickets to passports at that precise time is a coincidence? I don't. << I don't really have an opinion on this. However I would be interested in yours. I have only been to DL when it was still under the ticket system, not WDW.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Why does MPierce keep saying what I want to say just before I can say it? Scarey. But it sure was nice listening to them discussing, disagreeing and being very civil, and respectful. Thanks guys.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>He managed to get across his complaints without sounding like a Disney hater. Sometimes I feel like not posting here because I come off sounding so negative.<<< One of the things I love so much about LP is there are a number of posters who can share critiques. Please post what you think. If we loved everything or hated everything, then it would come off so false. The key to LP's success are the mature, well considered debates. FWIW I have had some great memories at the MK as well - Love the Liberty Tree Tavern.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Besides, anyone who enjoys the MK's Space Mountain in its current state of utter disrepair and feels its the best attraction at WDW ... well, I'd take what they wrote with bagloads of salt!>> Amen!
Originally Posted By mstaft Wow, Dave, I'd love to be able to see WDS through your eyes for one day. Pleasethrow some of that perspective our way in more detail. Really! I've been visiting Disney parks for (gulp) almost 45 years now (OUCH! I'm old!) and I just don't view WDS very well. The whole experience there seems very forced, as if WDI was going through the motions in building this park. That said, after seeing the Cars area and Crush's coaster this past June plus now the almost complete ToT, I am hopeful things will turn around. However,if there is a next trip to Paris for me and my wife, I'd spend one day at DLP and probably park hop for an hour or two to WDS. (Unless Indiana Jones Adventure or something of that magnitude really is built!) Paris itself is an amazing "theme park" and one I absolutely love. I can never get enough of this city! It has it all.
Originally Posted By mstaft Who was it that said "Good Americans go to Paris when they die"? I'm sure thinking heaven is better but Paris comes close...
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I don't know, maybe seeing WDS grow from nothing, living in europe and understanding the European psyche, I think that WDS resonates more with me than a casual visitor. Also, we have muc better character experiences with our kids there. Overall, yes DLP has a nicer park to get submerged in, but after 49 visits to DLP, I really appreciate the differences WDS offers (and streetmousphere - something DLP was aweful about between 1994 and 2007). Also, it is nowhere near as frenetic as DLP. And I truly think Moteurs Action and Cinemagique are amongst Disney's best offerings ever. As someone who loves film and how it is made, European cinema, and culture, WDS really offers something special. But I think if you are running around like a headless chicken to cram the whole resort in 2 days it will pail. When you go like we do and enjoy 4 - 7 days there, you can really appreciate WDS. Go in the morning and take a few coaster rides and a show, pop out to the steakhouse, annette's or King Ludwigs for a good lunch, and then enjoy the rest of the shows after lunch, finishing with some character encounters and rides before closing, it can be a great experience. For me, attractions wise the Studios has quality on offer. Let's see, of my fav attractions in DLP - train, PM, PotC, IASW, Star Tours, Space Mountain, Buzz, Tarzan, Lion King, Moteurs Action, RNRC, CM, AM, Armageddon, Crush, TOT and Cars Race Rally - almost 50% are in the Studios. Add the streetmousephere & live bands, and fun shows like HSM & Lilo and Stitch Catch a Wave - I really like the vibe of the studios. But I think people can't seem to look past the rectangular buildings. Was WDS perfect to begin with? No, absolutely not, but it did really move into the European psyche, and I know a number of people here in europe who actually prefer WDS to DLP. I am not one of them, but I would rather spend a day on unique or top notch shows and attractions of WDS than what I feel is the generic versions of MK "classics". If I had never spent time at DL (where I grew up) or at DLP (where I have spent a lot of time in adulthood), then I would probably give the MK more of a break. But the thrust of my arguement is that WDW is treated as the flagship resort, and the MK as the jewel in the crown when I feel like the MK offers the least value of the MK parks (except maybe HKDL) and that annoys we greatly. To most of us, WDS is nothing more than a new land or area of DLP. Most of us are either on hopper packages or AP holders, and because you can quickly walk between parks and the Disney Village, then I welcome a day (or several) in WDS with welcome arms. For WDS is seen as an added attraction. for many, the MK is seen as the main event. But it is like me going into a restaurant and ordering Filet Mignon and being served a hamburger. While I like Hamburgers, it is not filet.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>At least the last 10 years at WDSP I have seen continual improvement where at the MK I have seen the continuation of deprivation.<<< Sorry, that should read 5 years. But I have been following the park development for 10 (or more if you count MGM Europe).
Originally Posted By mstaft Thanks, Dave. You helped me to understand what you see there a little better. You are right- I am one of those guys who doesn't look past the rectangular buildings, particularly when compared to spectaular show buildings like Le Chateau, Big Thunder, and Space Mountain. I guess I see those as decorated warehouses- and I see plenty of them in Denver! Having a good background in French or European cinema would help me appreciate the park. I do nothave either. I never was a "theater or cinema geek" (no offense to anyone here). Nor did I really understand the draw to acting. I was a California beach bum who lived half an hour from DL and an adult who LOVES Jules Verne novels. So, you can see why a- I love DLP and b- why I can't wait to get to TDS! I agree with you 100%- the diversity of opinions, especially when handled respectfully- makes LP Boards very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to go into that detail.
Originally Posted By mstaft As far as MK goes, I think it is the worst MK style park I have visited (but I have not been to the Asian ones-yet!) I do like Liberty Square and enjoy Tomorrowland, although it was much better before it was cartoonized. The rest of the park is ok. That said, I do prefer the MK versions of Splash and BTRR over DL's. (However, BTRR at DLP Rocks!) Last visit to WDW, I did not even go to MK or MGM. Both need alot of help. In contrast, my time at EC and especially DAK were really high quality experiences.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<- Love the Liberty Tree Tavern.>> I do too, Dave. But apparently they realized it actually was a good value and upped the prices ... what recently was a $10.99 turkey dinner is now up to $14.99. But it's still one of only two full serve places I can dine at the MK (the much improved Plaza would be the other).
