Originally Posted By TomSawyer Fox News and Bill O'Reilly and the religious right seem to be focused on how liberals are trying to destroy or eliminate Christmas. They point to things like Walmart workers saying "Hapy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", or Boston erecting a "Holiday Tree" instead of a "Christmas Tree" this year. I think that the retailers are the ones that are really destroying the spirit of the season far more than the left. The retailers are the money changers in the temple, attempting to make their profits off of faith. If liberals are guilty of anything, it is trying to recognize that Christmas is not the only holiday being celebrated at this time of year. When retailers do it, they are doing it to drive sales. For business, this is a season of consumption and materialism. It's the season many of them depend on to be profitable for the year. By emphasizing gift buying and holiday decorations, they drive sales. And if they expand Christmas into a winter holiday that is celebrated by more than just Christians, they expand their potential market even further. The commercialization and secularization of Christmas is being driven by business, not by liberals. If anything, it is the liberals who are trying to keep us focused on the spirit of the season through things like "buy nothing day" or the movement to give gifts that aren't material things that eventualy end up in a landfill. Business has been very successful at redefining Christmas since the Victorian era, and once they latched on to Santa Claus as the central figure of their version of Christmas, the church has been in a losing battle over the meaning of the day. What do you think? Is business more responsible for the attempt to turn Christmas into a generic winter holiday, or liberals?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Business has been very successful at redefining Christmas since the Victorian era, and once they latched on to Santa Claus as the central figure of their version of Christmas, the church has been in a losing battle over the meaning of the day. << I think you're right about this. We tend to think of the commercialization of Christmas as a recent trend, but it began long ago and has been growing ever since. I think both sides of the holiday can co-exist. Yes, there's a lot of consumption and gift buying, but much of it is people truly wanting to give to another person, not a greedy intent. The religious side of it is still alive and well. Our local churches are very full on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning services, midnight mass, etc. >>Is business more responsible for the attempt to turn Christmas into a generic winter holiday, or liberals?<< I'd say it's a combination of conservatives, liberals and business, but largely business in trying to be inoffensive. I have a New Yorker cartoon that shows a bunch of executives sitting around a conference table. The CEO is holding a card in his hands, and saying, "Seasons Greetings. Well, it sounds okay to me, but let's run it by legal." Funny because it's true. Business makes the holiday more generic because they want to go out of their way not to offend anyone (which could result in bad press, boycotts, etc.). Some conservatives want Christmas be the major holiday recognized, forgetting (or choosing to forget) that more than Christmas occurs in Dec. And among some Christians, even Santa Claus is viewed as a false idol. So, rather than offending anyone, "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings" become the accepted greetings (plus, it would be quite a mouthful wishing people a Happy Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hannukah, etc.)
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Plus, as consumers, we're always doing something wrong. First, we're nuts if we want to go out and fight the crowds and Wal-Mart tramplings on 'Black Friday.' Then, today, we read the paper and find out that we didn't spend enough. And we wonder why we're just a bit cynical!
Originally Posted By Lisann22 When I worked at Hallmark in my college days, sad to say, but I was spit at, cursed at, yelled at and treated extremely rudely for saying Merry Christmas. We changed to Happy Holidays for our sanity. I still say Merry Christmas, but I don't get offended by Happy Holidays or Season Greetings from retailers. I know what they are going through. Yes, I think the Holiday is over commercialized but like Kar2oonman, I think it can co-exist. I believe it's a very personal thing, especially with your children. You can still teach them the meaning of Christmas and do traditions in your home and with your family to keep the spirit alive without over doing it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Then, today, we read the paper and find out that we didn't spend enough.<< LOL! Every year I do my part, and every year they always report "sales lower than last year."
Originally Posted By Lisann22 <---does not do Black Friday after 3 years of working in a Hallmark store. The memories of blue haired old ladies beating eachother with rolls of Christmas paper for the 50% off sales still gives me nightmares and watching them crawl on their bellies to get under the security gates for the latest Precious Moments figurines. ;>
Originally Posted By Shooba Just about eveyone celebrates the "Holidays", but only Christian's celebrate "Christmas". The fact that retailers and non-Christians like myself will say "Merry Christmas" without a second thought just goes to show that "Christmas" is now just a generic term for the holiday season. The fact that Wal*Mart would use the term "Happy Holidays" is actually GOOD for preserving the religious meaning of Christmas. It's an acknowledgement that what they celebrate (Santa Claus and Consumerism) has almost nothing to do with the religious holiday.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The memories of blue haired old ladies beating eachother with rolls of Christmas paper for the 50% off sales still gives me nightmares and watching them crawl on their bellies to get under the security gates for the latest Precious Moments figurines.<< <--- makes a note to be sure to visit local mall next Black Friday for comic relief.
Originally Posted By woody "If liberals are guilty of anything, it is trying to recognize that Christmas is not the only holiday being celebrated at this time of year. When retailers do it, they are doing it to drive sales." Liberals like the ACLU are interested in eliminating Christmas from the public square. They try to eliminate Christmas at public schools and government locations. It started there and it spread to businesses. Businesses used to refer to Christmas as the holiday being celebrated. Other than Christmas, what else is celebrated? Hanukkah comes to mind, but little else. I think there is little attempt by Liberals to ensure all religions have coverage. There is only an antipathy towards Christians. As for the commericalization of Christmas, I do think that is wrong, but let's be clear. Despite the materialism and the pervertion of what gift giving should mean, most people are doing it in the spirit of Christmas. "The fact that Wal*Mart would use the term "Happy Holidays" is actually GOOD for preserving the religious meaning of Christmas. It's an acknowledgement that what they celebrate (Santa Claus and Consumerism) has almost nothing to do with the religious holiday." I disagree. Saying Happy Holidays and Seasons Greeting is really an insult. It doesn't preserve anything. It excludes the spirit of celebrating Christmas. Generousity is part of Christmas.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Saying Happy Holidays and Seasons Greeting is really an insult.<< Really? You're truly insulted by that? Man, we better run that card by legal one more time.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The ACLU wasn't around when businesses started focusing on Santa Claus. And the ACLU wasn't focusing on religious Christmas symbols in government property when popular children's specials on TV fostered a more secular view of Christmas. Business has been secularizing Christmas far longer than the ACLU has been around. You've got it backwards, Woody.
Originally Posted By woody Go ahead. Run it by legal. Retailers can do anything they want. Just don't expect any good to come from that. Maybe you're right. If I think they are celebrating the unspeakable holiday, then perhaps I'll stay out of the Happy Holiday sales.
Originally Posted By woody "Business has been secularizing Christmas far longer than the ACLU has been around. You've got it backwards, Woody." The ACLU does not consider Christmas to be secular. Public schools can't say Christmas anymore. Businesses follow the crowd. Explain that.
Originally Posted By cmpaley What's interesting is that nothing has stopped western liturgical churches from celebrating the First Sunday of Advent yesterday. The first purple candle of the Advent Wreath was lit, vestments of purple or royal blue were worn. In Catholic Churches throughout the world, the propers of Mass for Monday in the First Week of Advent were used as well as the propers for the Liturgy of the Hours for Monday in the First Week of Advent. And...preparations for Christmas 2005 continue unabated in churches throughout the world. Seems that the religious meaning of Christmas remains quite lively and bright...in spite of the movement of business toward a celebration of its false god...mammon.
Originally Posted By woody If Christmas is secular, then why do we say Happy Holidays? I don't get it.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Correction. The following: In Catholic Churches throughout the world, the propers of Mass for Monday in the First Week of Advent were used as well as the propers for the Liturgy of the Hours for Monday in the First Week of Advent. Should read: Today, in Catholic Churches throughout the world...
Originally Posted By woody Christmas is December 25th. It is a national holiday. Is December 26th an "after Holiday Sale" or a "after Christmas Sale"?
Originally Posted By cmpaley To business, MONEY is the only god that matters. They don't care about God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the God Christians worship. They care about MONEY. Their god is mammon. Realize that and it becomes less stressful and annoying. You can actually enjoy Christmas as a Christian if you do.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm moving back to "flyover country" where you can still say Merry Christmas and can find a nativity scene at the Town Square. And to my Jewish friends I've got no problem saying Happy Hannukah and seeing a Menorah at Town Square too.
