Originally Posted By ecdc <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/09/09/army.suicides/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH...dex.html</a> While conservatives are simply giddy at their recent bump with the addition of a George Bush clone, real people continue to be harmed by Republican policies and decisions. For the first time since Vietnam, U.S. army suicide rates are on track to pass the rates of the general populace. John McCain doesn't want an Iraq timetable. Sarah Palin called the Iraq War a "task from God" and then said she doesn't think about it all that much. I wonder if the families of the soldiers who killed themselves think about it all that often?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Sarah Palin called the Iraq War a "task from God"*** As Josh pointed out in another thread, this part isn't true. There's plenty enough to be wary about regarding this dangerous woman, let's not act all FOX and distort the truth.
Originally Posted By ecdc IIRC, she said the soldiers in Iraq were on a task from God. I don't see how that's any different, unless I am mis-remembering what she actually said.
Originally Posted By Mr X Well, I disect it in another topic, but essentially what she said was a bit of church-speak that pretty clearly (to me anyway) meant something like "let us pray that we're doing the right thing, that this task is indeed a task from god". In other words (and what the media is doing is dropping just one word which is crucial), she didn't say "god wants this", she said "let's hope that this is god's will and not our own". Trust me, I'm not one looking to defend the woman, but I'm not a fan of distortions coming from either direction.
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k" target="_blank">http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=...vPYbRB7k</a> Quote in question begins around 3:40, and she says (if I'm not missing anything..): "Pray for our men and women who are striving to do what is right also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from god". Now, the key word is "THAT our leaders...", meaning "pray that our leaders". To me, that indicates what I wrote in post number 4 (I suppose you could argue the fact, but it is very familiar to me from catholic services). Whether purposefully or not, a lot of media outlets are dropping the word "that" from their quotes, which I believe gives the whole thing a completely different meaning.
Originally Posted By dshyates Well, she does say: "Our leaders, Our national leaders are sending them (the soldiers) out on a task from God." And her energy policy?: "That Gods will has to be done in unifing people and companies to get that gasline done..."
Originally Posted By dshyates OK, X, I see what your saying. But I think that's really splitting hairs on what her intent is. Just the concept that the war is God's Plan is concerning.
Originally Posted By Mr X I guess I just don't see it as splitting hairs, I think it's completely different. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. But I DO think it's pretty uncool that the media is selectively quoting her, when at least the full quote would allow for a discussion about it. Leaving out a critical word is not cool, imho.
Originally Posted By dshyates I don't see much diff between "its a task from God" and "pray THAT its a task from God".
Originally Posted By Mr X One says "god told us to do this", the other is a somewhat more reasonable "we hope we're doing what god wants". The first is much more extremist, something a jihadist would say. Anyway, like I said it's not so much the debate about her statement, but the fact that many media outlets are omitting what I consider to be an important part of it.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 We don't need to be sidetracked about the semantics of Palin's comment here. The suicide rate among soldiers participating in Bush's war is nearing an all-time high. And McCain wants to Stay The Course. We're not supposed to question McCain's wisdom on this point. As we were told repeatedly by the video lead-in to McCain and by the candidate himself on the night of his appearance at the RNC, he has a close mystical connection to God as relates to war. His life was spared in one war so that he could direct our country through another. Praise Jesus. Notice from the linked article that this issue was brought up by the Veterans Administration. And that the Army responds by saying: "Army leaders are fully aware that repeated deployments have led to increased distress and anxiety for both soldiers and their families," Secretary of the Army Pete Geren said. "This stress on the force is validated by recent studies of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans reporting symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder or major depression." In other words: "When we force soldiers to remain in a war zone for longer than our initial agreement with said soldiers, it appears to stress them out." The CDC and NIMH are calling for further studies. Based upon conversations with soldiers and upon my own common sense, I can guess what additional studies might discover... ...When you force soldiers to risk their lives for a cause that is completely indiscernible, they get discouraged. When their scheduled tour of duty ends and you force them to remain in the desert warzone even longer, they get even MORE discouraged. ...Watching friends die can cause "distress." ...Not having any sense that your friends' deaths served any meaning, or that your own service contributes to any understandible good, could lead to a sense of despair. But who am I to offer a take on this matter? I've never been in the situation.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster How to fight a war GOP style: 1) Fabricate intelligence and lie to the American people (and the rest of the world) that a particular country poses some kind of threat. Don't forget to illegally out intelligence officials who object to the falsified claims. 2) Call that country "evil" and then expect the citizens to embrace you as liberators when you invade. 3) Invade that country and express total shock when the citizens fight back. 4) Be sure not to give your troops the proper body armor or armor plating on their vehicles. 5) Tell the American people their sons and daughters died for a noble cause even though so many of them could have been protected if they were properly equipped. 6) Hire a bunch of private soldiers and pay them ten times as much as regular soldiers. Give them the proper protection they need and pay for it all with American tax dollars--the same tax dollars that pay our real soldiers. 7) Suspend the Geneva Conventions and torture and humiliate prisoners at will. If you get caught, blame the soldiers--the ones making LESS money. 8) Keep forcing soldiers to return for tour after tour even though many of them are suffering from PTSD and many other psychological disorders. Ignore the rapidly climbing suicide rate. 9) Go visit the soldiers as often as possible for photo-ops to show you really care about them. In fact send more of them out there and call it "The Surge". 10) Slash veteran's benefits and allow the top military recuperation hospital to give out treatment hardly worthy of a third-world hospital.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy That suicide rates for soldiers are on the rise should not be surprising. There is no way a soldier, sailor, or airman can lead anything that resembles a normal life these days. The pace of deployments and re-deployments is simply too much. Imagine a life where you can't maintain any sort of normal relationship with people back home, whether they are spouses, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, or just casual acquaintances. All of your relationships are carried on by long distance and disrupted by extended periods of no communication. This is an incredibly unhealthy mental condition for most people to live in. Relationships are vital for mental health. Then, add to that equation excruciatingly long work hours on deployment (days on end without sleep), anxiety over life or death scenarios, continued underfunding for equipment to get the job done, and constantly changing objectives for executing the mission. Is it any wonder these people are going insane and taking their lives?
Originally Posted By dshyates I personally think that this point, the administration is trying to keep those in the military disconnected from their families back home. Back home there is a definite anti-war tide and they don't want those stuck there exposed to the sentiments.
Originally Posted By Mr X That would make sense. This invasion is now nearly five and a half years old, Afghanistan even older.., both now equaling or besting the timespan of Americas' involvement in both World Wars combined. It's understandable that things are beginning to severely deteriorate morale-wise in any case.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Perhaps this is why our Constitution only gives Congress authorization to fund wars for a period of 2 years. Amazing how we ignore some basic concepts that were put in place the framers of our nation when we find them inconvenient to follow.
Originally Posted By ecdc Thanks for getting this back on topic, inspector. I too think X is splitting hairs on this one, but I genuinely appreciate his honesty. Maybe I am too caught up in my own disgust that an extremist like Sarah Palin makes the McCain ticket *more*, not *less* popular. And thanks for the links, X, so people can decide for themselves. Back to the army suicides, I'm genuinely curious what all the McCain supporters think of this? An unfortunate casualty? Should something be done?
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<How to fight a war GOP style:....>> We had a recruiter call our home (daughter is a senior). I told him she was not interested. "Why?" he asked incredulously. "Uh, because she has no desire to be cannon fodder in the imperialistic war we are waging in the middle east, and I had no desire to have her shipped back to us in a coffin". Boy, was he offended when I said that! Anyway, I told him to never call back.
Originally Posted By FaMulan Well, I'm sure he was, but you gave him your true evaluation of the situation and unequivocally told him you valued your daughters physical and mental health too much to subject her to a military action you disagree with. Good for you! Another parent might have had a different view and handed the phone to his kid. But that's another parent.
