Originally Posted By Doobie This topic is for discussion of the August 22nd Jim On Film column at <a href="News-ID180120.asp" target="_blank">http://LaughingPlace.com/News-ID180120.asp</a>.
Originally Posted By Santa Monica Um, I'm the first. I just wanted to say that I enjoy Pocahontas a lot and love how beautiful the imagery is. Not to mention the songs. And I love how moving the ending is. I hope if there is a special edition, they animate and insert the "If I Never Knew You" segment. And I love Stephen Schwartz's lyrics and play on words. Especially in The Hunchback. I love that line in Topsy Turvy that goes "Make an entrance to entrance..." Clever.
Originally Posted By ahecht My only complaint is how they sugercoat the story. For example: Pocahontas was actually between 12 and 14 years old when the story took place, and, in keeping with the custom of children not wearing clothes out of modesty (only for protection from weather), would've been naked during all her summer encounters with Smith. Pocahontas rescuing Smith from Powhatan was actually part of an "adoption ceremony," not an act of braveness on Poc's part. The relationship between Poc and Smith never went anywhere, and Poc ended up marrying John Wolfe, a tobacco farmer, and returned to England with him and became a sideshow freak, traveling around the country where people payed to see the "tame savage". Wolfe finally agreed to take her back to America when her novilty in England wore off, and she died of desease during the sea voyage home at quite a yound age. I wish that Disney had made up an original story, and not tried to shoehorn a story about exploitation and misunderstandings into their animated romantic comedy. Without this historical fiction nonsense, it would've been a great movie.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<My only complaint is how they sugercoat the story.>> You need to step back and watch the movie for what it is...a story [a very well told one, at that.] Disney didn't set out to make a historical documentary. There are plenty of movies that are based on real people or events that take tremendous liberties with personalities and facts; Pocahontas wasn't the first, and won't be the last. <<Without this historical fiction nonsense, it would've been a great movie.>> It IS a great movie, history notwithstanding. Maybe Disney's movie could be the subject of one of History Channel's "History vs. Hollywood" show, where they compare a classic movie of a famous figure or event to the real biography and history.
Originally Posted By monorailblue It probably isn't fair for me to comment, as I couldn't even get through to the end of the article; however, I can comment on what I did read. I am one of the many who really didn't care for Pocahantas and find neither the animation/art nor the music to be compelling. Pocahantas is animated in such an angular style, it often looks like her head is in a different plane as her stick-body. Nobody looks like her! In fact, I actually will agree that the film is somewhat non-PC, as Pocahantas is built a little like a Barbie doll. The music for "Colors of the Wind" is no more creative or musically substantive than any modern pop hit. The text uses no more textual devices than any decent nursery rime (or, rhyme, if you prefer), or even a Shel Silverstien poem. And, it doesn't even make sense--a person has no power to control, guide, manipulate or move the wind; a person can only stand back and look at, feel and enjoy it. How is this akin to painting? Even Jackson Pollack had to cause his paint to fly through the air. The song is based on a terribly weak (even ridiculous) metaphor. It would be better titled, "Can You Enjoy All the Colors That Wind Paints?", since Pocahantas certainly does not "use" the wind to "paint" anything. I think the reason few people find Pochahantas endearing is actually very simple: it isn't very endearing. mb
Originally Posted By sir_cliff I'm glad to see someone else enjoyed this film as much as I did! I've always felt Pocahontas received such a negative response because people didn't really know what to make of it. They presented the story in a low-key manner (which, IMHO, was the right approach) and everyone complained that it was too dull for a Disney cartoon. I don't believe it was dull, but that it created an overall atmosphere far more effectively than most animated films, including Hunchback. Hunchback had truely impressive moments, but as a film was all over the place. For example, one minute Frollo was attempting to burn a family a live, kill Phoebus and exclaims that he will find Esmeralda even if he has to burn Paris to the ground. Then cut to a shot panning over the burning city and up to the bell tower where the gargoyles proceed to perform a song and dance routine rhying words like 'adonis' with 'croissant is'. The film literally switches gears every ten minutes, while Pocahontas flows brilliantly. One thing Pocahontas also did which no Disney animated film since has been to accomplish was successfully intergrating the comic relief into the film. In every other film since it's stuck out like a sore thumb (gargoyles, Mushu, Terk, etc), whereas somehow the antics of the animals never seemed tacked on or out of place. The animation was stunning, and I'm glad someone else drew parallels to Sleeping Beauty! It's good to see Disney's animators pushing themselves stylistically, and I wouldn't hestitate in calling Pocahontas the most beautifully animated film in the post-Eisner era. As for monorailblue, well, I think you're taking Colors Of The Wind a little too literally which may point to why you didn't enjoy the film. She's not sugesting you can literally paint something with the wind, she's talking figuratively about becoming one with nature and letting it course through you. Singing with all the voices of the mountains and painting with all the colours of the wind is about understanding and becoming a part of the environment, rather than simply conquering it. Thus, "You can own the earth and still, all you'll own is earth until you can paint with all the colors of the wind." It's still a lesson I think the world at large needs to learn.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj I'm glad to see Pocahontas is appreciated by some. For my two cents, I've always thought that the film was probably the best paced in terms of story that Disney has ever done. From start to finish, everything seems to fit together perfectly without any excess or omission in the narrative. The score is fantastic, too.
Originally Posted By electra I love this movie for the artwork alone. Truly beautiful & unique style. The songs are fantastic too. My only complaint stylistically is how they designed John Smith. Like I've posted before, he looks more like a blonde surfer dude, not a 16th century explorer. As for the historical aspects, well yeah, its very inaccurate & almost ridiculous at times, but so is Anastasia(even more so in some ways) but I dont let that stop me from enjoying both films.
Originally Posted By Bill5925 Wow. Some very interesting and strong opinions. I'm among those who was not engaged by Pocahontas. However, I've always thought Colors of the Wind was one of the best songs. The problem is, it tells the whole story. The meaning of the song neatly condenses the Pocahontas/Smith and Natives/English relationships. No need for the rest of the plot, story and action. Tom Sito, head of story on Pocahontas, has in the past outlined some of the problems in telling the real story. Do we really want to see a Disney cartoon about a 12-year-old girl doing nude cartwheels through the town? And as for Disney's Pocahontas not looking like a real native american... Others have complained about this until they saw Russell Means' daughter who happened to be a knockout beauty like Pocahontas.
Originally Posted By Robert Cook Santa Monica wrote: >>> I hope if there is a special edition, they animate and insert the "If I Never Knew You" segment. <<< I totally agree. Removing this song from _Pocahontas_ was nothing short of butchery on the part of Disney, probably for no other reason than a couple of restless children in some "focus group." The scene completes the relationship between Pocahontas and John Smith. Lines about always being a part of one another, which may come across somewhat awkwardly in the final movie, make perfect sense after seeing this scene. If "Colors of the Wind" is about opening each other's eyes, "If I Never Knew You" shows us how their souls touched and made them both whole. Metaphorically, it's about the spirit of exploration, and how the human race is always seeking, even when we do not truly know what we're looking for, which is embodied in lyrics such as: "I'd have lived my whole life through, empty as the sky, never knowing why." The scene was almost fully animated and cleaned up, and much of it is already in full color. The cost of finishing this scene should be rather minimal, and I think they ought to put it back into the movie for a future DVD release (as long as the originally released version is also on it). Disney obviously has no clue about these things, adding songs to or changing songs in movies which don't need to be changed, such as _Beauty and the Beast_ and _The Lion King_ (upcoming), while ripping much of the heart out of _Pocahontas_, and not fixing it (yet, anyway). monorailblue wrote: >>> And, it doesn't even make sense--a person has no power to control, guide, manipulate or move the wind; a person can only stand back and look at, feel and enjoy it. <<< I think you're taking the song far too literally, but even then, it's not about using the "wind," but its "colors." The metaphors in this song are simple, powerful, and intuitive, so I'm not sure how to explain all of this, but I can try. >>> How is this akin to painting? Even Jackson Pollack had to cause his paint to fly through the air. The song is based on a terribly weak (even ridiculous) metaphor. <<< Think about the point she's trying to make--she's trying to get John Smith to look at the world through different eyes. The general theme is opening your mind so that you can see all of the sides of the story. The "wind" could simply be an example of any subject, or it could represent many things, such as change, time, and the mingling of diverse ideas. It seems to follow Pocahontas around, because these are the things that the character herself represents, sweeping all sorts of things up, bringing them together, and always pushing them along to new places. The "colors" of the "wind" are simply the attributes of whatever subject we're considering (with the implication that they can be subtle), sort of like how we'd say "shades of meaning." It's plural, so the main point is that there are many "colors," and Pocahontas is asking if John Smith (and we) can "paint" with *all* of them. This brings us to what it means to "paint." Quite simply, when we paint something, like a portrait or landscape, we are expressing the way we view and interpret things, which we ultimately use to determine our course of action. Pocahontas is saying that the way John Smith views her and her people as savages is based on ignorance and a closed mind, and that he needs to learn that there are many other "colors" that he's not using to "paint" with. Obviously, this notion has great meaning in the rest of the movie, as it does in our own lives every day. For instance, the wind engulfing Powhatan represents his realization of his own ignorance and prejudice, and his failure or unwillingness to truly understand what he was doing, from both sides of the conflict. Far from being weak or ridiculous, these metaphors together are highly appropriate, poetic, and evocative. >>> I think the reason few people find Pochahantas endearing is actually very simple: it isn't very endearing. <<< To some people. Are you trying to imply that this is a fact, rather than an opinion?
Originally Posted By actingforanimators JIM MILES: Please, drop me an email, I have something I want to relate to you directly. To all other posters: please excuse the boring and public nature of this, it isn't intended to snub anyone. Thanks AFA
Originally Posted By epolk Jim, Thanks for your great article about this movie. It has always been a tie between this movie and 'Beauty and the Beast' for my favorite animated film. I believe one of the reasons why Pochantas didn't go over was the very 'un-Disney' ending. She and John didn't get happily married and there were no fireworks. I personally liked the ending. There is the tragedy of the lovers that would be forever parted. But behind the pain there was a larger event taking place, the coming together of two diverse peoples through Pochahantas. The lovers were sacraficing their personal happiness for a better future. Pochahantas will always have a spot on the top shelf of my video collection.
Originally Posted By Jim I'm happy to see that I'm not alone in my love for this film. Besides the postings listed here, I've also received numerous posts via the feedback option which suggest one thing--many people do indeed love POCAHONTAS. Of course, all art is subjective, but I think that POCAHONTAS is really moving and in time, if those who don't like it watch it again, they might find something of value in it too. I didn't mention anything in the column about the historical aspect, so I will now. Disney never advertised the film as history. Ads called it "an American legend broughts to life," and that's basically it. It's an American fairy tale. Someone wrote and suggested I write a similar article on PRINCE OF EGYPT. While I would love to (I adore that film), it's not Disney so we'll see. It doesn't exactly fit my typical column topics, but it is very rich (and in many ways different from POCAHONTAS). My personal thoughts on "If I Never Knew You" is that altering films is a slippery slope. Several years ago there was a BLACK CAULDRON panic where some fake web rumor was passing about where there was supposedly going to be music added to make it a music Could you imagine all he revisions that could be made to films? And who has the say? I would, however, LOVE to have the Judy Kuhn/Mel Gibson version on CD. Anyway, thanks for reading!
