Originally Posted By ecdc <a href="http://www.wral.com/proposal-would-allow-state-religion-in-north-carolina/12296876/" target="_blank">http://www.wral.com/proposal-w...2296876/</a> North Carolina Republicans (Republicans? Shocking!) want to establish a state-recognized religion and they say that the federal government has no right to interfere and that the U.S. Bill of Rights doesn't apply to their state.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 It would never pass, thus it's a non issue. Unless of course they secede from the Union.... Don't think they'll be that stupid again... But on a related note, I am not sure why there is so much hate against Christianity and an outrage against the state legislature opening up their sessions with prayer. I am not religious, but when I go to my wife's grandma's house for dinner, we have a prayer, I stand there and respectfully bow my head and daydream for the minute or so during the prayer. Why does it matter how they open their sessions? Is it hurting anyone? We as Americans need to be more tolerant and yes that includes Christians being tolerant of others as well as others being tolerant of Christians...
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Sheer idiocy and stupidity on he part of these politicians. Absolutely moronic. But William, it isn't hate at all towards Christianity. If you want to pray at Grandma's house, please do. But please don't forget that the proscriptions and mandates of the Constitution apply to the government, not private individuals. But in government sessions, it isn't a matter of "hurting anyone". The First Amendment is very clear- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Government CANNOT adopt one religion over another. Period. No Christianity over Islam. No Buddhism over Christianity. On a more basic level, no Baptist over Mormon, or Catholicism over Episcopalian, which some red neck punk from North Carolina would apparently be sure to try.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Hit enter too soon. The idea is let people freely choose, or not choose whichever direction they want to go with their faith, hardly a concept that hates Christianity.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I am not sure why there is so much hate against Christianity<< Probably because there isn't "so much."
Originally Posted By FaMulan Ugh, those "lawmakers" need to retake their basic Civics and Constitution Courses because they clearly failed them.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 My point was, why do people care if these lawmakers pray before a session. The only reason they want this law is because people are trying to prevent them from praying prior to their session and there is no law that forbids this...
Originally Posted By fkurucz The first thing that crossed my mind here was "which religion?" Christianity you say? Which flavor? Somehow I doubt they would choose Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy or even a mainline Protestant denomination like the Episcopal or Methodist Churches. The answer would seem to be obvious: they would chose Protestant Fundamentalism. But even that comes in flavors: Pentecostal or non Pentecostal? Church of Christ or Southern Baptist? Non denominational? There are hundreds of flavors of that.
Originally Posted By ecdc I think some lawsuits against religious displays go too far (the lawsuit against the World Trade Center cross being displayed in the museum is particularly misguided) but this isn't one of them. These elected officials are expected to represent all Carolinians - Muslim, atheists, Buddhists, etc. There may or may not be religious nonbelievers or minorities in their own ranks. They have no business opening their legislative sessions with prayer.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Here's the thing about prayer: anyone can do it. And anyone can do it silently. The minute you make it an organized prayer, you make it sectarian; even if you're only excluding atheists. And almost certainly, you're excluding more people than that. If you're a lawmaker and you feel the need to pray, you can do that. Silently. Doing it verbally in a large group does not confer any more power on it. What it does do is assign a normative patina to it, saying essentially, "This is the norm. Those of you who don't adhere to the norm aren't in the club; not fully. We pray to an awesome God and the rest of you have a false one. How do we know? Just look; our prayer opens the sessions of our very government." That's really what this is all about, I think. I've always thought that's what public prayer in school is really all about too.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>But on a related note, I am not sure why there is so much hate against Christianity and an outrage against the state legislature opening up their sessions with prayer.<< >>Christianity you say? Which flavor?<< Here ya go: >>The American Civil Liberties Union sued last month to stop the Rowan County Commission from opening meetings with Christian prayers. One of those prayers declared that “there is only one way to salvation, and that is Jesus Christ,” the ACLU said.<< <a href="http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/03/17584491-first-amendment-doesnt-apply-here-nc-lawmakers-push-bill-for-state-religion?lite" target="_blank">http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new...ion?lite</a> Hillary 2016, 535-0 (unless some states unilaterally declare that the election doesn't apply to them)
Originally Posted By mawnck By the way, I talked to my parents this evening. They live in NC. And they've seriously started talking about moving to another state, which I thought would never happen. Things must be getting pretty bad there. (They still don't want to come to California though.)
Originally Posted By CuriousConstance Did you try throwing a tantrum? Or texting them some shots of you making a boo hoo face? Maybe that will convince them to move to California?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<One of those prayers declared that “there is only one way to salvation, and that is Jesus Christ,” the ACLU said.>> ^^ That's why it's wrong, William. Definitely a bridge too far.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Religion in government is like a cancer. This issue perfectly showcases yet another malignancy. Small wonder that religious zealots are behind it. Someday, if our species makes it to a distant future, this sort of superstitious mania will be viewed in the same light as that of a flat Earth. It already is, by many of us. Why condemn religion? Because the more we do, the more people are going to take notice, and apply logic and reason, instead of superstition, to their world view. Its working in Europe, but America seems intent on remaining faithful to bronze aged myths.
Originally Posted By CuriousConstance "Why condemn religion? Because the more we do, the more people are going to take notice, and apply logic and reason, instead of superstition, to their world view." And the sooner this happens the quicker we can get past all the ridiculous, non issues that religious nuts turn into huge, moronic controversial issues. Religion just further polarize sides in America. Nothing ever really gets accomplished because the sides are too busy hating each other over things like abortion, gay marriage,prayer in schools or limiting scientific research in favor of saving a few microscopic stem cell "babies". These issues highlight the fact that religion will never really be truly separate from state until it's all together gone. As long as people are walking around feeling like God has sent them on a mission to accomplish some backwards, discriminate goal we're all screwed.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of before ye ask him." - Matthew 6:6-8 I never understood the need to pray publicly. And, as the Man Himself says above, that's not even the way you're supposed to do it. Prayer to me has always been a very personal, meditative sort of exercise. I have never gotten any value out of public prayer - that always seemed too focused on the person praying and not the person being prayed to. But maybe that's precisely what they want. "Hey, look how spiritual and pious I am and how sincere and humble my supplication is - aren't I great?!"
Originally Posted By TomSawyer When you pray publicly, you're just praying to be seen. Jesus wanted his followers to show their faith through their acts and words, not by praying loudly in public and then cutting funds for the needy and ill. Prayer is just words, and God doesn't need people to tell him how much they love him. He needs people to take care of the sick, the hungry, and the poor, and to treat people with love and affection. North Carolina voted to deny civil rights to people over and over again, and held people in slavery. But, hey, we're going to have an official state religion because we love us some God. Hypocrites.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "But on a related note, I am not sure why there is so much hate against Christianity..." Seriously? You don't? Aren't the actions of the paranoid religious Republican lawmakers in North Carolina enough? What more do you need to understand?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "These issues highlight the fact that religion will never really be truly separate from state until it's all together gone." AMEN! Err... yes, I agree.
