Originally Posted By Mr X So a friend (Japanese guy) asked me today "WHY do the religious people have so much power in America today?". He asked if it was a backlash from the civil rights movement. And he also asked "why is America so much more religious than Europe?". Followed with, "if the religious Christians are predominently Republican, WHY are the black people all voting Democrat (they're religious too, right?)". Tough questions...I was pretty stumped (I was thinking a good answer would take the better part of an "American History" semester at a University...but I didn't quite know where to begin). Thoughts?
Originally Posted By dshyates I blame all the toxins we dump into the water. Or maybe the preservatives we chock our food with.
Originally Posted By Mrs ElderP Some History major answers: Q. WHY do the religious people have so much power in America today? First, although the perception from the outside maybe that "religious" people have lots of power, really it's evangelical people, a very certain type of religious people, that have lots of power. A.--Because Rove did an EXCELLENT job of organizing evangelicals in 2000. They are already organized anyway in congregations, with leaders they listen to. So, if you could tap into those evangelical leaders in an authentic way, badda boom, badda bing, a swing block in the American South and Midwest. (There are certainly evangelicals here in Ca, for example, who are solidly Republican, but they are not nearly enough of the population to swing us from being a solidly Democratic state.) Why is America so much more religious than Europe? A. (This is the easiest of the three) First, America started off, especially in the north east, with all of Europe's most committed religious people. (Though the most church attendance now happens in the south-east of the US, followed by the mid-west.) Second, we have had no major religious wars to turn people off of religion and the pain that it can bring. Third, **in general** the more educated and wealthy the US population gets the less religious it gets. So, the most educated, wealthy, parts of the US, the NE coast and the CA coast, have much less church attendance that the poorer south and mid-west. I can't say if these lower numbers compare with Europe's. Fourth, we have no official state religion, which leads to a flourishing of denominations (competition) and allows religious messages to be refined to attract congregants. That should be some info you can give your friend on this issue. A fifth reason for the strong religious spirit in the USA, strictly from my LDS point of view and my interpretation of our doctrine is that this land is the modern promised land, and as such the spirit is strong in the land. This inspires all sorts of people, tipping religiously sensitive people towards religion. However, I can understand that my 5th reason is not a "scientific" answer. Last Question: If the religious Christians are predominantly Republican, WHY are the black people all voting Democrat? (They’re religious too, right?) A--This deals with the same misconception that was evident above. Evangelicals (mostly white) are predominantly Republican, while other religious groups tended only slightly towards republicanism. Those aligned with "historically" black churches have been democrats, but so have their non-church going fellow blacks, so they don't stand out among blacks in general. On the other hand, non-Hispanic whites, a much much larger population is not solidly committed to one party or the other, so it is worth going after demographic groups within that larger group. The Pew Research Center is great place for lots of information about religion in American, and right now they have a whole section on religion and politics: <a href="http://pewforum.org/religion08/" target="_blank">http://pewforum.org/religion08/</a> Two links on that page that were interesting to me were an article titled: "Religious Voters in the 2008 Election: What It Means for Democrats, Republicans" <a href="http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=184" target="_blank">http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=184</a> and Religion and Progressive Politics in 2008 "<a href="http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=181" target="_blank">http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=181</a>" Much of the religious talk this election cycle is about what each of the candidates are going to do to win over American Catholics, both Hispanic and Non-Hispanic. They seem to be a large swing vote in key states.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I believe that part of the issue is trying to lump all Christians into one group. That would be the start. Some Christian groups are very different from others in the way they conduct their business and how they try and influence others by any means. The far right religious 'spokespeople' I also believe do not represent the true religion either. I read the commenthere from someone about Islamic extremists as a comparison and I actually do not believe that is a bad comparison. No more than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton speak for all Black people ( I know plenty of black people who think they are goofs) - the Pat Robertson types do not speak for their entire religion either is my belief - but they get all the press just like the aforementioned group. As an example, I am Catholic. I would wager a bet that most Catholics are Democrats, based on those I have known through my life. Are they a few extremists that represent the Catholic church - you bet, but not as many as some other Christian groups IMHO. We have a renegade priest here is Chicago, father Michael Phleger who runs at the other end of forcing religion on others) . When was the last time you heard a Lutheran group step out and rip into the American society ? ( I use them as I know many Lutherans being German ). Having been to Italy and Austria and Germany in the last 10 years, I found those countries at least as religious as America. It however is old school religion - ( for lack of a better term) - even the young people are returning more to religious service than say 15 years ago. The same is true for some people we know who live in Greece. The difference - they are not standing on the mountaintops telling people how to live - their faith is important to them - they live it, but are not 'preachers' in the sense of the media hoooors thayt espose themselves to have the one true understanding of faith. I hate to always blame the media - but face it, what sells papers, or gets people to watch the news more. A brother or a nun who just goes about their business and maybe is an excellent teacher in a private school - or someone screaming at the top of his lungs ala Jerry Springer using buzz words that will attract the 2 second attention span of todays society ? Sex ! Drugs ! Going to Hell ! -- all far more attractive than the day to day life of normal people who just happen to have a religious faith - whichever one that happens to be. I'll be very honest -- I see little to no correlation between my religion and theirs even though we are all Christians. just my 2 cents
Originally Posted By Mr X Great answers, Mrs Elder...appreciate that. Interesting that you mentioned "the new promised land", or what could be called (maybe) a "spiritual vibe" in America. Granted, you have your beliefs and they have theirs and I have mine...but it's interesting that you mentioned that. Eckhart Tolle, a guy I feel is VERY spiritual and interesting to listen to, claims that he sort of "got a call from the Universe" to leave England and travel to the West Coast of America (and Canada, where he now lives in Vancouver) in order to write his book "the Power of Now". He also claims that even when he went back to England (a place he loves dearly) he couldn't continue writing and could only perform mundane editing work. I don't know it that is either here nor there, except that I can feel that recently living in Japan. I love the place, I truly do...but I feel like the energy here is not healthy for me if that makes any sense. I think the pall of unhappiness is starting to really get to me. For some reason, I'm being drawn to Hawaii, or at least I think so. For what purpose, I don't know yet. But it feels like that's a good idea (Tolle, as well, had no plan or ambition when he moved, in fact he lived in poverty for quite some time writing...he just sort of felt it was the right place to be). Don't know why I wrote all of that just now, except that your idea of America being "the new holy land" (to be fair, I don't buy into that, at least not in an "old school" religious sense), set off a line of thinking I've been pondering for a while. Anyway, excellent observations (thank you again!), I will convey them to my friend when I see him.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Much of the religious talk this election cycle is about what each of the candidates are going to do to win over American Catholics, both Hispanic and Non-Hispanic. They seem to be a large swing vote in key states. < you mean I'm part of a power base ? yeah ! The last time Catholicism was important in an election I was 8 and I was reading how the world was gong to come to an end here in America because we were going to have a Catholic president. This does fall in line with what I said earlier though about most Democrats I know are Catholic ( I grew up in the city of Chicago where Catholic parishes define where one lives - neighborhoods are called by their parish ( this is still true a lot today- but not as much as 25 years ago). In the suburbs where I live now I'd say the split between GOP and DEm is about even at the Catholic churches -with most people centrists- regardless of party. There are more Protestants and Lutherans in this area than when I was in the city
Originally Posted By Mr X vb, more good comments...appreciate the input! I'll have a very comprehensive reply for my friend thanks to you guys (and hopefully even more viewpoints) when I see him again. Talking to him tonight, I could definitely feel that he just couldn't "get it", "it" being what religion in America is and where the power comes from... He really couldn't wrap his head around it, and *I* couldn't wrap my head around making sense of it (if that even makes sense lol), but these comments are excellent. With permission, I might even copy and print some of these comments and give them to him verbatim. Would that be okay Mrs Elder and VB (I promise to only show your comments to my friend...if it's not okay to print the comments, I'll just paraphrase)?
Originally Posted By dshyates "I believe that part of the issue is trying to lump all Christians into one group." I firmly believe that there is a important difference between mainstream Protestants and Catholics. And this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXQ8GH1xwxg&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...=related</a>
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <With permission, I might even copy and print some of these comments and give them to him verbatim. Would that be okay Mrs Elder and VB (I promise to only show your comments to my friend...if it's not okay to print the comments, I'll just paraphrase)?< I have no issue, glad I could shed another opinions light into the discussion
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I believe that part of the issue is trying to lump all Christians into one group." I firmly believe that there is a important difference between mainstream Protestants and Catholics. And this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...=related</a> < see this is just disturbing stuff to me and would have ZERO part with Catholics / Protestants /Lutherans etc...as I know and understand those churches
Originally Posted By fkurucz << So, the most educated, wealthy, parts of the US, the NE coast and the CA coast, have much less church attendance that the poorer south and mid-west.>> FWIW there a lots of evangelical churches in SoCal. I knew far more evangelicals and fundamentalists in SoCal than I do here in Colorado (home of Dobson's Focus on the Family ministry). Out here, most people I know are mainline Protestant or Catholic.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<see this is just disturbing stuff to me and would have ZERO part with Catholics / Protestants /Lutherans etc...as I know and understand those churches>> From what little I saw in the video, it looked like they were profiling Pentecostal churches. Not all evangelicals are pentecostal. In fact, the evangelical movement is quite diverse. There are even evangelicals who embrace poligamy.
Originally Posted By Mrs ElderP fkurucz... I grew up in Bakersfield, home of the transplanted okies. There we certainly have a signifigant population of evangelicals and I'm sure you'd find the same thing in the farming communities of CA, and LA and SD and SF are not empty of evangelicals. However, when you take the state as whole they can't do much more than elect republican represenatives out of the Central Valley and Orange County. We have two very safe Dem. Senators, one moderate govenator (who is pro-choice!), and almost no campaigning here as we are so solidly Democratic in the electoral college. I was just in Colorado for vacation. I was there for all of 4 days, but I was very impressed with the amount of campaigning going on there for represenatives and so on. Here in So. Cal I see no campagning on behalf of the seats in the house of Represenatives. And, having lived in CA for the last 11 years straight, through 2 complete Senate cycles I've NEVER seen an ad for either Boxer or Feinstien. You know better than I do the religious make-up of your state, but one thing is certain you are much more "purple" than we are!
Originally Posted By fkurucz Well, Colorado has a Democrat governor and they are the majority in both state houses. What keeps them in check is the Taxpayer Bill of Rights (TABOR). TABOR is a constitutional ammendment that keeps spending (and with it taxation) indexed to population growth and inflation. It has helped to keep both the "tax and spend" and the "borrow and spend" camps in check. The Dems especially hate it. One thing that many communities have done is to exempt local sales tax collections from the caps, because all sales tax money here is local.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<However, when you take the state as whole they can't do much more than elect republican represenatives out of the Central Valley and Orange County>> I know that they aren't the majority in Calif. Just saying that they are a lot more common there than some might think, where as here in Colorado its the opposite: outsiders think that this is a "conservative" state, and it really isn't. I'ld say that we are closer to "blue" than to "red".
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Because Rove did an EXCELLENT job of organizing evangelicals in 2000>> Which was no small feat. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are NOT one big happy family. Many people think (erroneously) that they are one big denomination. The truth is that they are a very fractured group.For instance some are very lax with divorce and remarriage, while others are almost Catholic like in handling this. A common trend these days is for denominationsl protestant churches to play down their denominational ties and market themselves as "evangelical". So that "evangelical" church down the road might really be Methodist or Presbyterian. It really has become a smorgasbord (sp?) of doctrines. Also, Pastors are not shy about "flock stealing", especially from other evangelical groups that they don't see eye to eye with. This was a major stumbling block for Promisekeepers in its early days. Pastors were hesistant to send their male parishioners to PK, because they were afraid that they might end up losing them to another church.
Originally Posted By dshyates Hey kfurucz, what the minister from Denver that used to have a show on public access that used to name gays that died of aids in town. He also got arrested for beating his kid. I just can't seem to remember his name.
Originally Posted By fkurucz I don't recall. I did hear of one from Colo Springs who turned out to be a closet homosexual.
Originally Posted By dshyates Naw, Ted wasn't the guy. Ted is quite the character. Huberis comes to mind. To take such a stand on gays while being a crank tweeked gay john himself, WOW. The guy I'm refering to is much lower profile than Ted. Just found it, Bob Enyart. He bills himself as "America’s most popular self proclaimed right-wing, religious fanatic, homophobic, anti-choice talk show host." Divorced twice, and was arrested for beating his 7 year old step son leaving bruises and welts. What a guy.
