Originally Posted By SuperDry <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bush;_ylt=ArGWMEXxQfEV08EnVz4BFZWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ-" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bus h;_ylt=ArGWMEXxQfEV08EnVz4BFZWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ-</a>- <<< President Bush said Monday he wants to crack down on those who enter the country illegally but also give out more visas to foreigners with jobs, a dual plan he hopes will appease the social conservatives and business leaders who are his core supporters. >>> You can read the rest. I wanted to be the first to praise the President for what I think is a fair, reasonable, well-thought-out plan that addresses the problem in a holistic manner, rather than playing to one narrow constiutuency or another. It's closely in line with what I believe we should do: implement a sensible guest worker program (as many other countries have successfully done), and build the darned 1500 mile wall or however long it is, and strictly patrol the border and force both aliens and employers to abide by the rules in place once they are realistic.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 The only sad part is that he came up with this plan 5 years too late. It may be too late to do anything about the problem.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Well, at most 4 years too late, as he proposed essentially the same thing a year ago and it got shot down by the hard right. It's been said by some that moderates get run over - it's ironic that this happens even to President Bush by his own loyal supporters whenever he steps even a bit away from the hard right agenda.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Bush is offering amnesty to illegals who broke the law. That't the part that he still has wrong according to many.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Right wing solution to immigration issue: Shoot all the Messicans! Shoot all the Messicans! Anything less is socialist, communist, terrorist loving and all that crap.
Originally Posted By patrickegan No one is advocating that we shoot them just that the Government enforce the law.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer cmpaley, that isn't fair. It isn't just Mexicans, it's all brown-skinned people.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Bush is offering amnesty to illegals who broke the law. >>> Well, just yesterday the President said "But for the sake of justice and for the sake of border security, I'm not going to sign an immigration bill that includes amnesty." Obviously, the President doesn't believe his proposal offers amnesty. Or is he lying? Or perhaps there's more than one way to look at a single issue.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom President Bush has lied. He said he wasn't going to give an amnesty program and that is exactly what he proposes. These individuals broke our laws by entering the US illegally, they broke US law by staying here and broke US law by getting jobs here. We are a country with a rule of law, no ruled by the majority. What President Bush proposes is feel good legislation to lull the masses back into complancicy with total disregard to immigrantion laws CURRENTLY ON THE BOOKS. I have absolutely no confidence that the President plan on delivering what was in his speech yesterday. Both the Republican and Democratic party's have absolutely no intrest is guarding this countrys borders or enforcing US Immagration laws in their attempt at Hispandering.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Well, anything that allows those presently here to regularize their status (even if they do not get put to the front of the line on the road to citizenship) is considered amnesty. The goal of *many on the rabid-right* is to rid the country of as many brown-skinned people who talk funny words as possible (NOTE THE PART THAT'S EMPHASIZED!). A truly holistic approach would include securing BOTH borders better, employer enforcement, a means for those presently here to regularize their status while putting them in the back of the line for citizenship in the order of arrival, a more realistic number of family-based visas and the like. I would also like to see our country take steps through trade agreements, to require labor protections as well as environmental protections to ensure that working people in the poorer countries in the Americas aren't drawn to the US by the hope of a better job and life. If the wages earned working in a maquiladora were better, I don't think people would be so tempted to try to come over here. Also, countries like Mexico need to invest in its infrastructure to allow it to use its awesome natural resources. There is no reason for Mexico to be a third world country with all the resources they have, especially the people who are some of the hardest working people I've come to know.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Oh thing you forgot to mention is that near needs to be severe punishment ie fines and/ or jail time for anyone hiring an illegal immigrant ( which is also currently on the books but not enforced ). Look I would be perfectly content if we just ENFORCED the laws currently on the books. I have always been for securing our borders, ALL borders.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Obviously, the President doesn't believe his proposal offers amnesty. Or is he lying? Or perhaps there's more than one way to look at a single issue.<< He is lying. The only thing people on "temporary" visas have to do to become "permanent" is to have an "anchor baby" (a child born in the US, an consequently a US citizen). This is about one thing folks: cheap labor. IMHO its the super wealthy who benefit from this "reform". The middle class still gets shafted, as they will continue to be displaced in their jobs by foreigners who are willing to do the same job for less $$$.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << President Bush has lied. He said he wasn't going to give an amnesty program and that is exactly what he proposes. >> In a way he did lie on this one. How can you reward illegal aliens who entered our country, only to reward them in the end without it being amnesty? Maybe Bush has a good plan in the long run, but he needs to stop playing games with the wording on this. cmpaley, for you to suggest this is racist in ANY way ( your brown skin remark ) only hurts you and your credibility on this topic in my opinion.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>A truly holistic approach would include ... a means for those presently here to regularize their status while putting them in the back of the line for citizenship in the order of arrival...<< Why? Why shouldn't these people return to their homelands? By offering them amnesty, we only encourage more illegal immigration in the future.
Originally Posted By fkurucz ^^^Some people propose that we "bribe" these people to go home. Give each family $20,000 to go home with the understanding that if they get caught sneaking back in that they will be incarcerated for a long time. An extreme, yet interesting, idea.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Because in order to enforce it, you have to basically become a total police state and stop everyone to check their papers. Or are we only going to stop brown-skinned people? In a free society, that is unacceptable...unless, of course, it's a Republican in charge, I suppose. There are advantages and disadvantages to both sides of the argument. As a prospective Catholic Christian, I believe that am obliged to fall on the side of recognizing the inherent dignity of every human person, so I fall on the side of letting people regularize their status with some requirements and caveats. I've heard interesting things about the McCain-Kennedy bill that seems very holistic and takes a realistic approach to the whole problem. Here's what the rabid-right refuses to talk about: WHY do people risk their lives to come here illegaly in the first place? If we can answer that question and help to deal with the underlying problems, then I firmly believe that illegal immigration will be an issue of the past.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Beau, just admit it. You want these people shot or tortured...SOME means of SEVERELY punishing people for wanting a better life.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom First off if we are talking about immigrantion then we are talking about immigrantion. When the President spoke yesterday he was not talking about immigration he was talking about Mexicans illegially disregarding the laws of the US. <<WHY do people risk their lives to come here illegaly in the first place? If we can answer that question and help to deal with the underlying problems, then I firmly believe that illegal immigration will be an issue of the past.>> Your arguement is rooted in Mexican immigrantion/ illegal immigration. What about people who came to this country LEGALLY who are not Mexican? What about the people from Kosova, Hati, Cuba? Lets face it there are a lot of immigrants who are in the US both legally and illegally. What the President spoke about yesterday pertains to Mexicans why else would he have given this speech in Arizona? Are we to assume that thousands of immigrants are forsaking the countries airports only to walk accross the Rio Grande? Show me someone from Eastern Europe who walked accross the Rio Grande into Arizona. What the President proposes is to move Mexicans to the head of the line. So much for all other immigrants. I suppose Mexicans are special, at least more special than ANYONE else in the world. Even though there are plenty of armed conflicts going on in the world were people truely are trying to enter the US to save their lives, Mexicans DEFINATLEY COME FIRST. I have an idea. How about enforcing the immigrantion laws we currently have? What about allowing people who have respect for your country's laws to enjoy a better life here? And why are we trying to appease criminals?
