Originally Posted By Big Thunder I am hoping we can discuss a sensitive [sometimes volatile] subject without it getting ugly. It is not intended to lean towards any religion or political faction. It is related to abortion, but it is not about illegalizing nor abolishing abortion. It is not aimed at either pro choice or pro life supporters' opinion on abortion, it is simply about weather you feel it is important for parents of a minor to be notified of an abortion for their minor age child. In other words, if you are/were the parent of a teenage [minor] girl who was planning on aborting her baby, would you want to know about it. You could either condone it or disapprove, it does'nt matter what your position on abortion is. This proposal is NOT to argue weather it's right or wrong, it's just to let you as aparent or guardian be aware that your minor age child is getting a significant medical procedure done and are you OK with that? So... Do you think parents should be notified?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Seems like we've been down this road. I'm in favor of parents being notified but NOT stopping it.
Originally Posted By Big Thunder <<Seems like we've been down this road.>> well I dont know if it was discussed here in WE before, but assume it was probably CA Prop 73 in previous election which failed. >>"I'm in favor of parents being notified but NOT stopping it."<< ^^ OK cool
Originally Posted By jonvn If it's going to stop a kid from doing this, then no. You don't want a child to have an unwanted pregnancy. Period.
Originally Posted By Big Thunder Jon, please understand, this is not about stopping the procedure, it is about notifying the parent. Will that ultimately result in stopping an unwanted pregnancy? Will it prevent an abortion? I dont know, maybe it will maybe it wont. The point however is weather the parents should be made aware of it, then parent and child can arrive at a decission together. I realize that many [probably most] young girls in that situation are afraid to tell their parents, I dont blame them and I dont want to cause any more fear or anxiety than they may already be going through, however I think the proposition is intended to eventually remove some of those fears and bring parents and children closer so that they dont have to be afraid to talk openly. Try to think of it this way, weather it were a wisdom tooth extraction or a fetus extraction, would you want to be notified?
Originally Posted By jonvn 'this is not about stopping the procedure, it is about notifying the parent.' I understand. But if a girl decides to not get an abortion out of fear her parents will find out, and then she ends up being pregnant because of that then this is bad. It's even worse if she hides the pregancy, and then dumps the baby in a trash can after she delivers. This happens a lot. It doesn't need to be encouraged.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Sorry. I believe a parent should be notified AND APPROVE of any medical procedure performed on a minor child.
Originally Posted By jonvn I understand that, but I think it would lead to a lot of tragedy in kids trying home remedies to get rid of pregnancies and baby abandonment. I think that's more of an overriding concern than parental notification. You have to weigh the greater good against the greater harm, and that's how I come down on it, anyway.
Originally Posted By Big Thunder <<I understand. But if a girl decides to not get an abortion out of fear her parents will find out, and then she ends up being pregnant because of that then this is bad>> Are you presuming that most parents would try to stop the abortion? Maybe some would, but my assumption is that here in CA there are more pro-choice parents than not, and is it a fear of... "my parents will try to stop the abortion" or is it "my parents will not understand" My hunch is the later, which I would hope could be corrected. When I was a kid, I usually *thought* parents would not understand, but now that I am a parent, I remember what it was like being a teen and I like to think that I am open minded and would at least *try* to understand. I know I would not want my child afraid to tell me. Furthermore, I'm sure I speak for my wife on this... as a parent I'd be crushed to find out that my child went through a significant medical procedure without my support. To me, that's like finding out they had their appendix removed but I wasn't there to be with them before they went in and when they awoke from the anesthetic. Regardless of the moral dilemma, the proposition is simply saying that this is a significant medical procedure and warrants parental acknowledgment. For a teenager to get a piercing they must have parental consent, same for a tattoo. For a doctor to practice most common procedures on a minor they must have parental consent. Why would an abortion clinic, that practices medical procedures be any different from similar laws? Isn't that like keeping abortion in the dark like the old days when people had to sneak around? But that's just my opinion. Jonvn you have stated views, and I'll respect all opinions in this topic.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Are you presuming that most parents would try to stop the abortion?" No. I'm presuming that some girls would be so afraid of their parents finding out that they don't go to a doctor to get the procedure at all, and end up with either an unwanted pregnancy and a baby in a trashcan, or a botched home abortion of some type. That's my concern.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I understand that, but I think it would lead to a lot of tragedy in kids trying home remedies to get rid of pregnancies and baby abandonment.>> I think in extreme situations there could be legal remedies. Just as a child can be emancipated prior to age 18 under certain circumstances, I would envision that parental notification could be circumvented too in extreme situations. I don't even think ear-piercing should be performed on a minor without parental consent... of course I am going to want to approve any serious medical procedure. And although I personally oppose abortion, I don't feel I have the right to dictate to someone else what they should do. So while I would probably try to discourage my daughter from that option, I would not prohibit it.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I think in extreme situations there could be legal remedies." We're talking goofball kids here who are too intimidated to have talked to their parents about birth control already. These are specifically the ones who would be the most at risk of being fearful of their parents finding out. They're somehow going to get up the nerve to get a lawyer? I don't think it's realistic, honestly. As far as ear piercing (which I find disgusting) goes, the difference is that if you get your ear pierced, and you don't like it, the hole will seal itself up. If you end up with an unwanted child, it's yours for the rest of your life. So, it's not quite the same thing. And while you personally would not prohibit it, a child in the situation might think you would, and would then have to seek out some other type of remedy other than a medically safe procedure--which is the big danger here.
Originally Posted By Big Thunder I'm sorry jonvn but your posts are convincing me that the proposition *Should* pass. Even though you state that there is a possibility of a child seeking some unsafe mode of avoiding the pregnancy, everything you state makes me see the situation in a barbaric ugly dark secret kinda way, which tells me there needs to be a resolution.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I'm sorry jonvn but your posts are convincing me that the proposition *Should* pass." If you vote for this law and it passes, and a baby is left to die in a garbage can because of it, the blood of that infant is on your hands. If some 12 year old girl who is frightened to death of going to her parents decides to give herself a coat hanger abortion and dies, her blood is on your hands. The reality of the situation is that parents do not have full and final control over their children's medical care. And in an instance like this where the lives of children can be put in peril, then the parents simply have no say in the matter.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Sorry. I believe a parent should be notified AND APPROVE of any medical procedure performed on a minor child.<< Agreed. The only exception I would make is if the girl were raped by a family member.
Originally Posted By jonvn Nope. It doesn't work that way. Parents do NOT have the right to not approve medical procedures deemed necessary by medical authorities. Examples of this happen all the time. You do not have the right to endanger your child's health or well being.
Originally Posted By Big Thunder Jon does this help at all?... "Under Proposition 85, a minor can petition the juvenile court for a waiver. In a confidential proceeding, she can ask the court to find that notifying her parents is not in her best interests."
Originally Posted By Big Thunder some basic facts... Children under 18 can’t get an aspirin from the school nurse, a flu shot, or have a tooth pulled without parental consent Children under 18 can’t go on school field trips without parental consent Children under 18 can't get a piercing or tattoo without parental consent More than thirty states have parental involvement laws in effect. I still have not heard one reasonable objection why this proposition should not pass.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Under Proposition 85, a minor can petition the juvenile court" That's all well and good. But if a child is so concerned about telling their parent something like this, then they're not likely going to figure out how to go to court over it. The only other thing that would happen, then is that planned parenthood, or wherever abortions take place, would then have to take the additional step of having every kid go through this stupid legal process, and with a lawyer on site to file the brief with a friendly judge. Basically, it would either amount to nothing, or be detrimental. As far as what children under 18 can and can not do, there are some things that the parents have a say over, and some things they don't. Life and death decisions they really don't have control over. It's not up to the parent. "I still have not heard one reasonable objection why this proposition should not pass." I think then that no matter what objection you hear, you would not consider it reasonable.
