Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <You may never figure it out, but you don't just sit there and say some deity did it without further investigation.> Sure, but how can you rule out the deity without further investigation?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <You can debate about the "seven days" thing all you want, but the fact remains that the order of creation presented in Genesis is essentially the same as that given by science and evolution. How could the writers of the Bible get that right if not for divine inspiration?> Well, I believe in a metaphorical reading of Genesis, but the fact is that Genesis doesn't actually quite get it right in terms of order. It says the earth was created before the stars, for example, and that birds came before reptiles.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Sure, but how can you rule out the deity without further investigation?" When some evidence is presented that a deity exists, then I'll take a look at it. A self-contradictory book, such as the Bible, which in itself is in direct opposition to other ideas espoused around the world, is of no value as evidence. People's "beliefs" or "faith" is no evidence, either, because people will believe anything, true or not. So, there is no evidence. Just because we don't know how something works scientifically does not give one cause to INVENT some entity that is doing it. That is how the Norse and Greek peoples invented their gods. God of thunder, god of the sun, and so on. That was their religion. Today, they are children's stories and the fodder for comic books. In a few hundred years, perhaps, maybe we'll see a Jesus comic book. With Jesus flying around on a magic carpet throwing lighting bolts out his fingers trying to rid Jerusalem of masked bad guys trying to rob the Temple of a few sheckels.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Again, you seem to really enjoy going out of your way to insult and mock people's religious beliefs. I've had faith, been agnostic, and it's always a struggle. But I will never understand the need to do this mocking schtick. It's not a winning way to make your points. But you know that.
Originally Posted By jonvn It is not my intent to mock you. What I am trying to illustrate is that deeply held religious beliefs are just stories, and as time goes on, they become plainly not religious concepts. We have comic books out right now based on Thor. Norse God of Thunder. A comic book. He goes around, and solves crimes. This was a deeply held religious belief. At one time. Now, it's a kid story and no one takes it seriously. For Christianity, in Europe anyway, the religion is already on a steep and fast decline into irrelevance. Fewer and fewer people go to church, fewer and fewer people say it has any meaning to them. In Northern Europe, it's basically of no relevance to people's lives at all. In Europe, Christianity is much older, and in Europe, they have seen centuries of horror over it. It'll eventually happen here as well. Will there be a comic book? Not soon, but if you went back and talked to a Viking about Thor, would you think he'd be a bit put off by the idea of his gods and deeply held beliefs being used as fodder for cheap children's magazines? Seems like it would offend him, too.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It is not my intent to mock you.<< Right. It's your intent, by talking about Jesus on a magic flying carpet to not insult people's religious beliefs. >>What I am trying to illustrate is that deeply held religious beliefs are just stories<< To you. To other people, their beliefs are just that -- their beliefs. It's fine that yours are different from others. But religious beliefs bring comfort and inspiration to millions of people. Even if there's no God, you wind up needlessly insulting people who are trying their level best to live peaceful lives inspired by those 'stories.' I don't understand the need to do that, and you haven't explained it, other than you think you have the answer and everyone else must be wrong, delussional or weak-minded. I'm just saying your approach isn't winning anyone over that isn't already in line with your view. It's the old attract flies with honey rather than vinegar theory.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Right. It's your intent, by talking about Jesus on a magic flying carpet to not insult people's religious beliefs." It's my intent to show how deeply held religious beliefs, over time, turn meaningless and become what Thor has become. There is no difference between Thor and Jesus in terms of how they were felt about. "But religious beliefs bring comfort and inspiration to millions of people" And fear and death and horror to millions of others. That's what I see as the end result. "people who are trying their level best to live peaceful lives inspired by those 'stories.'" I don't see that as happening, frankly. "I'm just saying your approach isn't winning anyone over that isn't already in line with your view." I have no illusions that I will win anyone over. No one is going to change their religious feelings based on what I say on this board. It is, however, how I feel about these things. I have very little feeling towards religion other than base contempt. That is my feeling on the subject. What would you have me say? How would you have me phrase it? How should I mask what I think is really the truth of the matter in such a way that it does not offend people, nor give rise to offense? My very beliefs are offensive by their nature. Is it not possible to have offensive ideas and be able to express them clearly? How would you go about it?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't see that as happening, frankly.<< Really? You need to look around a little more. Because it happens all over. Doesn't usually make news, except maybe the end of a newscast around teh holidays. But it happens day in and day out. Not everyone is on a jihad. >>How would you go about it?<< Me personally? I'd probably keep my under my hat. Smile politely when someone said 'Jesus loves you.' I'd take a look and see if my base contempt for religion might be too simplistic a view, that maybe I'm buying into evidence that supports my preconcieved ideas, the very thing I was accusing religious people of. That's just how I'd go about it. I don't go about trying to win people over to my beliefs on the subject, because frankly, I know I don't have all of the answers. That's me, though. You do whatever you wish. But like a poster who is no longer here, you'll end up driving people farther from your point of view than towards it, simply because of the appraoch you choose and the all-certain knowledge that you are right, and no other reality could possibly exist.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Sometimes, just by asking, you get some amazing responses about people's faith, what it means to them. This thread was amazing -- everyone was civil, respectful, honest... <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/default.asp?WCI=MsgBoard&WCE=T-74668-P-1&Refresh=0416164401" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/de fault.asp?WCI=MsgBoard&WCE=T-74668-P-1&Refresh=0416164401</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn "Smile politely when someone said 'Jesus loves you.'" Well, you see, I do. I don't tear into people who say such things to me. But this is a discussion board, and so I'm discussing it. I don't understand why I should keep these things under my hat, if it is how I feel. I think that's not being honest. "simply because of the appraoch you choose and the all-certain knowledge that you are right, and no other reality could possibly exist." Yes. I think I'm right. I hold beliefs that I think are right. But, if you can show me that I'm wrong, I'll change my mind. This is always true, and it is what I've said all along. If someone can show me something that indicates an error on my part, I will drop what I thought originally like a hot rock and go for what then seems to be the correct thing. For example, I was originally for the war in Iraq, given the Bush Admin's lies about it. I thought they knew what they were talking about. Turns out they didn't. Turns out they were lying. So, I changed my opinion. I have no problem with that. But, I will state my opinions, and often state them extremely strongly. This is probably something I should not do, but it's how I end up phrasing things online. Of course, this has led to most people hating me, but c'est la vie. I have to be who I am, and write the way I am able to. I generally don't intend to be offensive in what I say, but I do say what I say because I say what I think and don't varnish it very much at all. Perhaps that is something I should do, but it doesn't seem to be something I am very good at doing.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I was originally for the war in Iraq, given the Bush Admin's lies about it. I thought they knew what they were talking about. Turns out they didn't. Turns out they were lying.> And here it is again. You hold out no possibility that the Bush Administration wasn't lying, but just mistaken? That they were speaking what they believed to be the truth, but were given bad information by others? It's the same with religion. Isnt's possible that its neither the literal truth or a lie, but something in between?
Originally Posted By jonvn "You hold out no possibility that the Bush Administration wasn't lying" No, I don't. They were. The end.
Originally Posted By disneyfreaksk I usually stay away from this catagory... Seems to me like this would be discriminatory. It should not matter about race, religion, gender, age... of a president. Isn't it wise to judge a person by their credentials and character? Discrimination hurts everyone.
Originally Posted By ecdc But 2oony, it honestly seems like you are expecting jon to be respectful of others beliefs but not expecting them to show him the same courtesy. I know you don't mean it like that, but if jon merely expressing his beliefs is offensive, then is it not true that religious people merely expressing their beliefs can also be offensive? In short, it just sounds like you're starting from a perspective where religion is the norm and agnosticism/atheism is the odd thing that has to walk on egg shells. If religious people don't want jon to tell them what he thinks about religion, it seems to me that they have to show him the same courtesy - it's a two-way street. I honestly felt like his point was a valid one. It's one of the main reasons I've become an agnostic - there's simply no difference between ancient, now defunct religious beliefs like the Egyptian worship of Ra, Osiris, etc. and our worship of Jesus. And if Christians find comparing Jesus to Thor offensive (or in my more common analogy, Santa Claus) then perhaps they can appreciate that I find being told I'm not going to heaven offensive.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But, if you can show me that I'm wrong, I'll change my mind.<< Fair enough. You said you didn't see people simply trying to live peacefully, bolstered by their religion. I'd encourage you to scan the Web at little hometown newspapers who cover this sort of thing with regularity -- people from a church collecting food or clothes for the needy, etc. Look back at the articles about the slayings at the Amish school, and their reaction to it. They were the definition of peacefulness and quiet dignity. I think you might, just might, admit to a bit of hyperbole saying you just didn't see it. Maybe not.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But 2oony, it honestly seems like you are expecting jon to be respectful of others beliefs but not expecting them to show him the same courtesy.<< Have I been disrespectful? Has anyone in this thread? Look, in matters of faith, I am not in a position to preach to anyone. I don't have all the answers. I just think that jon is intelligent enough to present his beliefs about religion without introducing Jesus on a flying magic carpet. That's intentionally looking to get a rise out of people. And he knows it. >>In short, it just sounds like you're starting from a perspective where religion is the norm and agnosticism/atheism is the odd thing that has to walk on egg shells.<< Maybe I am. As I said, I'm not the person to speak on behalf of the religions of the world. I'm out of my depth. But I also picked up on the typical mocking tone that too often creeps into these sorts of discussion, and the mocking came from Jon. It's just been my experience that many times, atheists take the same tone and approiach as the most fire and brimstone preachers do. I find neither one an attractive trait, and wanted to point it out.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You said you didn't see people simply trying to live peacefully, bolstered by their religion." Well, see, you're likely not a member of a minority religion which has suffered at the hands of Christianity for a couple of millenia. And the truth is that while I am not a religious person, people treat me differently because of my heritage. People who you see as trying to live a happy and peaceful life, all of a sudden treating me differntly--and markedly so. The ideas I have don't come from a lack of knowledge. I know what most of the world's religions believe. I also know how they treat other people. I know what has and has not been done in the name of religiion, and I know that these common decent folk you talk about change their behavior when presented with even a non-threatening difference of opinion. So while you may see something that involves people living happy and peaceful ways, I don't. I see something quite different, and I see something very distressing and historically hostile.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<but the fact is that Genesis doesn't actually quite get it right in terms of order. It says the earth was created before the stars, for example, and that birds came before reptiles.>> I think it depends (as always) on interpretation. Here is mine, which indicates things being described in the proper order: 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Pre-big-bang creation of energy and matter. 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. God set in motion the event which would result in the big-bang. 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4. And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. The formation of our solar system results in night and day. 6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. 8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. <<Initially, the Earth's surface was mostly molten rock that gradually cooled through the radiation of heat into space.>> Source: <a href="http://www.solstation.com/life.htm" target="_blank">http://www.solstation.com/life .htm</a> 9. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. 10. And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. The earth begins to cool and as it does land forms separate from the molten mass. 11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12. And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 13. And the evening and the morning were the third day. <<The first multi-cellular lifeforms (e.g., fungi, plants, and many plant- and animal-like protoctists) evolved.>> Source: <a href="http://www.solstation.com/life.htm" target="_blank">http://www.solstation.com/life .htm</a> 14. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. 17. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18. And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. 19. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Day and evening were created back in verse three. I believe this is when the earth’s atmosphere started to clear sufficiently that the sun, moon and stars could be differentiated. <<Some scientists now believe that anaerobic methanogens began to prosper and eventually filled Earth's atmosphere with nearly 600 times as much methane as they do today. That extra methane would have produced a greenhouse effect strong enough to heat the planet to a higher average temperature than it is today, although the Sun was around 20 percent dimmer at that time (Pavlov et al, 2000).>> Source: <a href="http://www.solstation.com/life.htm" target="_blank">http://www.solstation.com/life .htm</a> 20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 22. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24. This shows sea-life being created/evolved prior to birds and mammals. Since the first reptiles were amphibians that came out of the water, I believe they are included in sea-life. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. The creation/evolution of mammals. 26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. The creation/evolution of man. I know this becomes a little like arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. I also do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. BUT... The story of creation in Genesis, even if not exactly right, is far beyond what science would have known at the time the Bible was written. If it was not inspired by God, the writers got danged lucky.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Do they pray?<< Not in the Judeo Christian (or even Hindu) sense. Its really meditation. The notion that Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) is a deity is a common misconception in the west. Buddhists don't deny that "gods" exist, but they do deny that they are relevant in the big picture. Therefore they don't pray to any god.
