Originally Posted By FerretAfros I was watching an old video this morning called "Backstage Disney - The American Adventure" today, and a quiet comment stood out to me. Randy Bright, show producer at WDI, discussed Carousel of Progress and said something that doesn't quite match up with what I know about the attraction: "...after the World's Fair [COP] played for 5 years in Disneyland and then another 10 years in Walt Disney World and has just closed. It's the longest running show in the history of the theatre." <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://youtu.be/kjEuamApA58?t=12m32s">http://youtu.be/kjEuamApA58?t=12m32s</a> From what I can tell, this video was made in the mid-80's. The park is still referred to as EPCOT Center, yet appears to have most of its pavilions in aerial shots, and the video appears to be an early Disney Channel production. With the dates, I would guess they're talking about COP's 1985 closure, when the GE logos were removed from the attraction. With the opening of COP's 'sequel', Horizons, in Epcot a couple years earlier, GE saw no reason to sponsor both attractions. So was the 1985 closure intended to be permanent? Everything I've found online indicates that it was a quick closure to cover up the GE logos, and it reopened shortly after with no real noticable changes. I can't imagine that this video, which presumably would have been intended for repeated viewing several years to come would make mention of a brief closure. Even today, the specials on the Travel Channel and the like don't mention closures. Was this a case of them being more open and honest in the days before super-slick marketing? Or simply a misinformed statement? Or did Carousel of Progress actually close 'permanently' in 1985? Normally, I would assume it was a misinformed comment, but given COP's on-and-off status through the years, it does make me wonder (and as a fun bonus, near the start of the video, there's a great shot of Imagineers working on a pre-opening Epcot model, which shows mountains in World Showcase: Mt Fuji attraction behind Japan, and another mountain (possibly the proposed Matterhorn clone for Switzerland?) roughly in Germany or Italy)
Originally Posted By sjhym333 COP was open during that time. The GE references were all removed both the visual stuff and the references in the show. There was time when the COP went seasonal but it has never closed permenantly. I'm assuming he meant the closing for the GE removal
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost It came very close to closing, I believe in the mid-90's. It became seasonal which meant it was almost never open. Two things collided to make it remain. One was that there was a massive campaign to save it from destruction because it was one of the last big Walt Disney hands on productions. And second, at that time, they had decided to close up Alien Encounter and replace it with Stitch's Great Escape. During the time that they had it close to change it over, there was very little to do in Tomorrowland so they opened CoP up full time again and it has remained that way since.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I remember the quasi-closure in the early 00's, since it was also around the time that Wonders of Life began to go seasonal. I think another factor in keeping COP open was the park's overall capacity (number of attractions a guest can do in a day), which is also what caused the need for the Fantasyland expansion stuff It just seems curious that there would be a mention of a closure in a video like this, if they knew that it would only be closed for a short while and reopen. I guess the wording of it could mean that GE's run ended, but that's certainly not what it sounds like
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>I think another factor in keeping COP open was the park's overall capacity (number of attractions a guest can do in a day), which is also what caused the need for the Fantasyland expansion stuff << Why is the new work on Fantasyland viewed as "major expansion" and this huge boost to capacity to the park? They lost 20K in 1994. They finally got that lost "capacity" back with it's replacement: The Little Mermaid. Snow White ride is replaced with a meet and greet. Capacity +/- isn't going to change a great deal, either way. What was once 'capacity' as Toon Town Fair .. is now annexed as part of Fantasyland. Only the second Dumbo could really be considered "added capacity"/Expansion. But given a spinner, it's not exactly moving people through like it's "PotC". Only the Beast restaurant, and whenever that dwarves coaster ever gets open ... gives the park, overall, some added capacity. As Leemac would say ;p - 'it's laughable' to call Fantasyland this incredible major added CAPACITY. It is not. I doubt they will be adding serious capacity for a long time to the park, if ever. I've been staring at that empty space south of Space Mountain ... kind of masked by the Skyway building for years. Now, simply a bathroom location. That looks like one serious "expansion pad" for TL. But at the rate they do things .. this is how it works: They'll close something .. loose that capacity for years. Then they'll finally get around to building a replacement - and call it an "expansion". Brilliant! What a way to spin, and fool the public!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I don't think it's a 'major' capacity increase, but it does add to the park's overall bottom line. If we assume that the Snow White coaster and dark ride have equal capacity (I suspect the coaster's will be slightly higher), then our net additions are from Mermaid and the second Dumbo. Let's be conservative and say that the omnimover has an hourly capacity of 2,400 people per hour, and Dumbo adds an extra 500; that's an extra 2,900 rides per hour, or 34,800 additional rides in a 12-hour operating day (even though MK is typically open longer than that). When you add up the princess meet & greet, Belle's story time, Ariel's cave, the rubberheads in the circus tent, and permanent Mickey space on Main Street, that also turns into a relatively solid number No, none of these individually add a huge amount, but in total it adds up. And it's not about expanding the park for future crowds, it's to allow it to handle the ones it has now. The park's theoretical capacity peaked around 1994; this is just an attempt to regain some of those numbers, now that attendance is higher than ever >>As Leemac would say ;p - 'it's laughable' to call Fantasyland this incredible major added CAPACITY<< He's the one who said it in the first place! : /
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>>I remember the quasi-closure in the early 00's I think the Alien Encounter/Stitch changeover happened '02-"03.<<<< I alluded to the fact that I wasn't sure about the exact dates, but, now that you folks have narrowed it down, I'd say the dates you have mentioned are correct. Early 2000's. >>>>They lost 20K in 1994. They finally got that lost "capacity" back with it's replacement: The Little Mermaid.<<<< I think that they gained a lot of capacity with Mermaid over 20K. That ride took forever to load and unload. You could run the entire ride length of Mermaid in the time it took just to load the Subs. >>>>They'll close something .. loose that capacity for years. Then they'll finally get around to building a replacement - and call it an "expansion". Brilliant! What a way to spin, and fool the public!<<<< I will agree that they took for ever to gain back the capacity, but if you figure that in the, so called, "expansion" they replaced the low capacity 20K with Mermaid, The Mine Train, the Belle Story, and a complete doubling of Dumbo...I think that they gained quite a bit of capacity. CoP however had huge capacity and loss of that had far more impact then any of the others. Trouble was that it had lost it's overall popularity and was no longer filling all four or five theaters. In order to fool the public, as you put it, you would have to assume that this enters anyone train of thought. They didn't fool anybody because no one in their right mind would have even wondered about it. That wasn't their problem, it was Disney's. However, I feel strongly that what they have (are doing) in Fantasyland is indeed an expansion. Not in space but in things to do or see.
Originally Posted By leemac <<As Leemac would say ;p - 'it's laughable' to call Fantasyland this incredible major added CAPACITY.>> Don't put words into my mouth, Dean! ) FLE has added capacity overall - the primary drivers for approving it in the first place was added capacity and increased attraction count.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 Nice to hear from you Leemac. Do you have a timeline on the Dwarfs coaster and the rollout of MM+ fully? My sources are being rather vague. I think mostly because the dont know.
Originally Posted By oc_dean heh-hee leemac You notice ... I've only coined the part in quotes .. not the whole sentence involving Fantasyland. That's just me stating Fantasyland .. not that you ever said anything about this particular subject. From pictures .. it's a lovely RENOVATION .. and bit of an expansion - especially with the dwarves coaster footprint - no denying that. But I think it's ~laughable~ ;p ... to call some parts "expansion" .. like the tents for Storybook Circus .. when they were tents for Toontown Fair. Or to call the Barnstormer an "expansion" just because it's absorbed as part of Fantasyland now .. instead of Toontown Fair. Things like that. Anywayzzzzz ... nice renovation though. About CoP loosing ridership .... Seems if it's growing as "cricky" as reports have been mentioning. Act IV stuck in 1993 ... I think I'd find myself riding it fewer times as well. Is this where the co. intentionally lets it fall into disrepair .. so it's ridership will fall ... and justify closing it? I could see CoP refreshed with some new technology ... to liven it up. But as the co. is more interested in pushing franchises, I'm worried.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>But I think it's ~laughable~ ;p ... to call some parts "expansion" ..<< What would be a better term? The branding calls it "New Fantasyland" (to the point that the land's name on park maps has been changed), but given that the vast majority of "old Fantasyland" is still sitting there without changes makes that name no good. They could call it a Fantasyland renovation, but that again runs into difficulties when you consider that most of the land hasn't been renovated. I think that the "expansion" name best reflects what it is, without having to write 4 sentences each time you want to name the place >>Is this where the co. intentionally lets it fall into disrepair .. so it's ridership will fall ... and justify closing it?<< Perhaps, but I sure hope not. I'm optimistic that the same capacity problems that led to the Fantasyland whatchamacallit will also be enough to keep COP around. At this point, I'm not holding my breath for a big refurbishment, but it certainly needs one
Originally Posted By leemac <<Do you have a timeline on the Dwarfs coaster and the rollout of MM+ fully? My sources are being rather vague. I think mostly because the dont know.>> From what I gather Ops are still looking at the forward bookings. The original plan was for a soft opening in late January and the official opening in April (with the announcement of the Poly DVC then - and possibly Flamingo Crossing if news of the hotel partners doesn't leak first).
Originally Posted By leemac <<What would be a better term?>> It is all marketing spin anyhow. I'm always perplexed when folks get their boxers in twist over things like that. Marketing needed something to hang their campaign on and that made sense. It is still an expansion - albeit on previously occupied land - as it took over Birthdayland. It is all semantics anyhow.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Perhaps, but I sure hope not. I'm optimistic that the same capacity problems that led to the Fantasyland whatchamacallit will also be enough to keep COP around. At this point, I'm not holding my breath for a big refurbishment, but it certainly needs one>> TDO want it gone so I think once it finally reaches a state where they can no longer operate the show then it will be shuttered until its demolition. There is almost zero chance of it being refurbished. It is simply seen as capacity now. There have been a number of plans for that pad over the years but it is just a lack of capital commitment that has left CoP languish.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Well, like I said expansion doesn't automatically mean you add more land. If that were the case then Disneyland (the park) hasn't expanded since it was opened in 1955. DCA isn't an expansion since it was built on an existing parking lot.
