Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Much is said about how much some Disney parks are cleaner than others. First of all I have to say I wish that all Disney parks would be held to the highest possible cleanliness standards, regardless of where they are. Disney is Disney, regardless of the neighborhood. However, when I went to Japan on business a few years back, I was struck by how clean the people there keep themselves and their surroundings. People dress well. Trash is not allowed to lie on the ground in general in public. Heck, even the cabs we rode in had laundered, fresh-smelling doilies on the seat covers. I haven't seen that anywhere outside of Asia. In other words, it looks like Japan tends to keep it's general public areas the way Disney parks are kept here. So I wonder if the ultra-cleanliness of the Tokyo Disney parks is a combination of Disney PLUS Japanese cleanliness standards. Here in the US, the general public seems to be a lot less clean-street oriented than Japan. So Disney parks here are better than the outside world all by themselves. They tell me the condition of the Paris park is lower than the US. (Don't know, I haven't been there) But I have been to Paris on business, and I found much clutter on the common thoroughfares. Moreso than even here in the US, if you can believe it. So I'm wondering, is the Paris park "less clean" than here in the US because it's Disney MINUS local standards? It's not the people themselves. But it's what they're more used to finding as "acceptable" in the public arena. Or am I reading too much into this?
Originally Posted By BlazesOfFire I think you are right and are definitewly not reading too much into this. However like you also said, Disney is Disney and it should be clean no matter what. I just think that less tourists here would notice it, and trash would definitely be more noticeable on the ground if you were in Japan because they are used to having it so much cleaner.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe IMHO-ss It's a class thing. When we go into people's homes, I take off my shoes, as long as they have rugs. The Japanese actually have slippers for their guests when they come into their homes and take off their shoes. Some cultures don't believe in bathing much> we have people from 50 countries as our insurance customers, so we see and smell this first hand. I won't mention what cultures don't bathe or that are dirty as it serves NO purpose here. The point is I too wish that all places were as clean as WDW. They do a remarkable job in keeping the parks and restaurants immaculate.
Originally Posted By Mr X The Disney company has gone downhill, trading profits for reputation. It shouldn't matter where the park is. Disney is Disney. If guests in Paris (just for example) are less tidy in general, it's up to the Disney company to set aside an appropriately larger budget for custodial services. Anything less is compromising the reputation that Walt Disney manifested. Back in the old days, I read that Walt refused to put up fences or "keep off the grass" signs in Disneyland. He didn't want his guests to feel put off. So, instead, he allowed for a larger grass re-sodding budget. THAT is "spare no expense", at its best. That's what the reputation is built on. And that's what the Disney head honchos should understand. p.s. I've seen plenty of fences and "keep off the grass" signs recently. And it depresses me and makes me wish the old days were still around. But, they're not (sad to say). p.p.s. Sorry, these comments are NOT intended to dismiss the interesting comments made in the first three posts, I'm sure they are also true. I just think it's up to the Disney executives to compensate, if they build a Disney park in a location that happens to attract more litter prone patrons...I do believe that the Japanese people, in general, do not tend to litter. However, the custodial cast at TDR also seem to work VERY hard to keep the place pristine.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe But X What happens in Paris if Disney pumps up the budget and has to pump up their prices commensurately? Then what happens if people can't or won't want to afford the extra prices? BIG corporate trouble. It seems like Disney, like all companies, have to think of the financial feasibilty and not just Walt's dream
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Back in the old days, I read that Walt refused to put up fences or "keep off the grass" signs in Disneyland. He didn't want his guests to feel put off.>> But that was also back in the days when most Americans would strive to keep a nice looking place nice. Now many don't give a darn. It would be much more difficult and costly to maintain that standard today than it would have been back in the 50's and 60's.
Originally Posted By Mr X It worked out financially for Walt in the long run, did it not? It's just a matter of standards, and reputation. Who's to say they aren't LOSING money right now by not being as spic & span as they used to be, thereby suffering from guest disatisfaction and loss of return business? A lot of what Disney rides on is their reputation for being clean and friendly. When people start to feel that isn't true anymore, don't you think that some of the customers will decide to take their vacation budget elsewhere? As far as passing off their budget to the customer, how about cutting back on some of those suits who are deciding to let the parks slide?
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>But that was also back in the days when most Americans would strive to keep a nice looking place nice. Now many don't give a darn. It would be much more difficult and costly to maintain that standard today than it would have been back in the 50's and 60's.<<< I don't buy that. Maintaining standards is at the very heart of what Disney "is". I don't think coming up with excuses about why it's harder to keep the place clean is really relevant. It's an expected standard that Disney needs to maintain if they are to keep their stellar reputation intact. And that's worth a few extra bucks. In fact, penny wise, pound foolish is a recipe for companies like Universal to surpass Disney, as they have already been attempting in Orlando, and succeeding at in Osaka!
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney ^^Couldn't agree more, Mr. X. Whether the Japanese culture is more concerned with cleanliness and service doesn't matter one iota to those of us who remember that WDW used to be damn near spotless. It's not anymore. People may be messier, more self-centered today in America, but that's not why the MK is allowed to get filthy. No, cutbacks in custodial, smaller budgets, an older park that needs more TLC and WDW lowering the bar significantly as to what's acceptable are the reasons behind it. To use culture as an explanation for why things have been allowed to deteriorate in Orlando (and perhaps Anaheim and Paris, although those parks have seemed a lot closer to prsitine when I've been to them) is Disney apologist thinking. And, no, I don't think Walt would have wanted that and spare me the this is 2006 and Disney is beholden to Wall Street so they have to cut quality line. I ain't buying.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> To use culture as an explanation for why things have been allowed to deteriorate in Orlando is Disney apologist thinking. << My post is an observation -- not an apology.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Taking in concideration what I see in Japan, Hong Kong and Paris, versus what I see in their parks... I think culture does influence to a certain degree but should not matter in regards to Disney. If management at those international resorts didn't care about upholding Walt's legacies, then it would not matter. Japan is a very clean and very efficient nation, but it's not totally clean either. Just like Paris.. lovely city but filthy. Hong Kong seems a bit run down in most areas as well... But any of that is not a reflection of what I see in the parks. In regards to Japan... I won't argue that the japanese seem to have a more dedicated approach to work. That can be seen, not only at TDR but all over.. so yes, TDR does benefit from that. But in terms of cleanliness... if OLC didn't have the batallion of custodial CMs I see day in and day out at TDR, the place would be trashed, concidering the excesive crowds they get there on regular basis. As for Paris.. well... the park is trashed and so is the city. Heck, many cities in Europe are not the best example of pristine conditions... and since in Europe, it is culturally acceptable to leave trash behind for others to pick, that careless notion is also evident at DLP, where I blame Disney for not having a more effective custodial team in place and where it becomes more of a challenge since most europeans are very much into NOT following rules and regulations, and do so under protest it seems. Heck, most don't even know how to do a line or respect the concept of "waiting your turn". Anyone who has been there can attest to those problems at DLP...the "Smokiest" place on Earth. HKDL is well... another problem. A lot of cultural traits are crashing with american culture's way of doing business... or else, why do we keep hearing of reports of guests jumping in line just because they have kids and talk on phones or take pics when they are told not to do so in indoor shows and rides... Yet, my limited experience with HKDL has been positive for the most park.. At least that park appears to be clean and pretty the times I have been there. All in all...(and reason why I am so frustrated) these resorts are "Disney", and cleanliness and upkeep are supposed to be Disney standards at each and administered with the same emphasis for perfection. I do not see that at DLP at all, see it to some degree at WDW, HKDL and DL, but see it excell and exceeds my expectations at TDR. Why does the quality in this and other areas flutuate from one resort to the next when Traditions is supposed to teach all CMs the same lagacies and expectations in regards to what it means to be Disney??? I can only find fault in each particular management team at every resort, and to a lesser degree...the guests, who tend to forget manners and not cooperate. A dirty park gives guests licence to continue trashing it. Reason why I would not ever dare put a cup on the floor at TDR because I know others would give me a dirty look... but at least there, it would be seconds before a custodial CM comes by and cleans up... unlike the case at the other resorts.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<People may be messier, more self-centered today in America, but that's not why the MK is allowed to get filthy. No, cutbacks in custodial, smaller budgets, an older park that needs more TLC and WDW lowering the bar significantly as to what's acceptable are the reasons behind it.>> If the majority of Disney's customers wanted greater cleanliness, higher custodial budgets, etc. I'm quite certain that would be provided. But by and large they don't. They want new E-Ticket attractions, they want new Parks, they want moderate and budget priced hotels on Disney property, and they want free rides to WDW from the airport. That is what the customers want, so that is what Disney provides. I think if you polled guests at WDW the great majority of them would say the cleanliness of the parks was not only satisfactory, but in fact was very good. Do you think Disney is going to put more money there when most guests think things are fine as they are? I don’t care what Walt did in 1955. It isn’t going to happen in 2006. P.S. When Disneyland deteriorated to the point where a significant number of guests WERE complaining about it, something was done. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The guests in Orlando aren't squeaking.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <So I wonder if the ultra-cleanliness of the Tokyo Disney parks is a combination of Disney PLUS Japanese cleanliness standards. < of course it is true-- look at the subway system in Tokyo.....then look at one of our major cities subway systems -- so I do not see this as a Disney apologist stance....it is one factor, and a big one. Is the cutback in maintenance staff another - sure....but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is the only one and it surely doesn't help.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom As far as I'm concerned cleaniness in the parks has to do with two things; 1) The budget for custodial staff and 2) the quests. Yes Disney has been cutting back on the number of custodial staff in an attempt to decrease expenses. But the number of guests going to these parks is staggering considering compared to the numbers of guests going to the parks in say the 70s or 80s. Add to this all the "packaging" now sold in the parks related to food and trinkets, paper cups, cardboard french fry and popcorn containers, etc. Not to mention all the "disposeable" stuff people bring into the parks with them now. I can remember when my family first when to WDW back in 1976. We actually left the MK and had a tailgate lunch of sandwiches in the parking lot. Yes, perhaps your average quest today is more likely to "trash" the parks as well. I really don't see how culture comes into the picture at all.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "My post is an observation -- not an apology." That's fine. But others will use your observation as an apologist argument. As I said in another thread, I just came to the conclusion something I hadn't really realized consciously, anyway. Namely that people were more prone to litter and abuse property in the 1970s than they are today. Yet the MK always looked new ... well into the 80s ... and still in great shape into the early 90s. ... then budgets were slashed. Sometimes 2+2 really does equal 4!
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "If the majority of Disney's customers wanted greater cleanliness, higher custodial budgets, etc. I'm quite certain that would be provided. But by and large they don't. They want new E-Ticket attractions, they want new Parks, they want moderate and budget priced hotels on Disney property, and they want free rides to WDW from the airport. That is what the customers want, so that is what Disney provides." Roadtrip, guests may, justifiably, want more E-Tickets. But only Disney freaks and geeks want more parks in Florida. And Disney already has more than enough value and moderate motel rooms. And DME? C'mon, be serious here. None of those things has one iota to do with the budgets for custodial and maintainance workers. The idea that you wouldn't have Everest if Disney kept the MK cleaner is laughable.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The idea that you wouldn't have Everest if Disney kept the MK cleaner is laughable.>> No it isn't. The money has to come from somewhere. They aren't going to cut back the hotels because they bring in huge amounts of revenue. Where do you think it will come from? Either they have to cut expense somewhere else or raise ticket prices, and I think tickets are already quite expensive. And don't say reduce executive salaries. No matter how good that idea might be, we all know it will never happen.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney They raise prices at least once a year. The hotels didn't exist, for the most part, when they built three of four parks. Do you realize how much $$$ they generate? Theorhetically, those hotels should ensure that the parks get new E-Tickets every year or two. But that doesn't happen. No, that money goes to pay execs like Ovitz and Katzenberg or for bad business decisions like sports teams, Go.com, regional entertainment, stores ... shall I go on?
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> But others will use your observation as an apologist argument << Can't control that. I meant what I said and I said what I meant. How others decide to interpret according to their values is beyond me. I will say that communicating via written words alone is sometimes hard. People on the other end cannot see your body language, the arch of your eyebrow, or hear your voice inflection. They take your words in context of their own lives as they read it, instead of the context of the life that delivered it.
