Originally Posted By mawnck From "Steve D" in the comments section on frumforum.com. This was so good, I had to share. >>A few general rules from an actual card-carrying scientist. 1. If you argue against climate forecasts by saying we can’t predict the weather two weeks ahead, you are utterly unqualified to be in the debate. If you don’t know the difference between weather and climate, go take an intro class on meteorology. (Hint: it’s a little like micro- versus macro-economics) 2. Anything you get off a blog or the popular media is worthless. If you can’t refer to the actual scientific literature – real journals, not the bogus ones started by denialists – you don’t have any qualifications to join the debate. 3. NASA said it would go to the Moon and did. NASA said it would build a space shuttle and did. NASA says climate data is showing the earth getting warmer. And you have accomplished…? 4. Anything by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine is a joke. The vast majority of the people who signed their Petition are not climate researchers. 5. TV meteorologists are not climate scientists. 6. “Arrogant” is a favorite buzzword to dismiss real authorities, whether they’re climatologists, evolutionary scientists, or 9-11 debunkers. Speaking from a position of expertise is not arrogance. Speaking from a position of zero expertise is. 7. Scientists are not “self-appointed experts.” They are real experts. The “self-appointed experts” are the people who think they can read a couple of blogs or Jack Chick tracts and enter a technical debate as equals. >>The leftists may get the last laugh. The middle class now has a whining sense of entitlement to match anything we see from welfare recipients. I have a right to see my house increase in value. I have the right to retire in luxury. I have the right to services without paying taxes. I have the right to a good job even though I slacked off in college. I have the right to good grades even though I didn’t study. And of course, I have the right to be treated as an equal in technical debates even though I don’t know jack. While we were actually seeing Presidential candidates in 2008 who doubted the age of the earth, the Chinese rolled out an LED screen the size of a soccer stadium. They will mop the floor with us if we’re not careful. And we won’t even have to learn Chinese. They’ll do it in unaccented, idiomatic English, because they’re not too lazy to learn foreign languages.<< <a href="http://www.frumforum.com/humans-are-making-it-hotter" target="_blank">http://www.frumforum.com/human...t-hotter</a>
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>TV meteorologists are not climate scientists.<< This one especially bears repeating.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<The middle class now has a whining sense of entitlement to match anything we see from welfare recipients. I have a right to see my house increase in value. I have the right to retire in luxury. I have the right to services without paying taxes. I have the right to a good job even though I slacked off in college. I have the right to good grades even though I didn’t study. And of course, I have the right to be treated as an equal in technical debates even though I don’t know jack.>> It's definitely permeated our society, hasn't it? Think about rudeness and inconsiderate behavior we see every single day, which is at the core of these beliefs. Drivers at intersections who don't wait their turn or actually run the stop sign/stop light. Customers at the store who cut in line or check out in the express lane with 10 more items than they're allowed. Adults swearing like sailors at the top of their lungs or loudly discussing their sexual exploits, especially while on their cell phones on a crowded bus or commuter train and while near toddlers or preschoolers. The list goes on and on. This is the "entitlement mentality" that really needs to be addressed by the politicians, NOT the belief that one should be able to collect Social Security or Medicare that they paid into for decades through payroll taxes. The true entitlement mentality is pervasive throughout the tea party, the "my way or the highway" mindset which is literally destroying our democracy. They believe they are entitled to everything they desire, even if it literally destroys the livelihoods of others, destroys our environment beyond repair, destroys the very fabric of our global economy of which our nation is a major player. What's happening in our country right now is but a microcosm of what is taking place around the planet. Much of Europe is about to crash, Asian markets are weakening, and we've got morons in our government who are still taking hostages like the FAA and demanding even more reductions in spending via defunding of programs they don't like, which will surely drive our economy and most of the world's economy further into the abyss. They have no intention whatsoever to turn around our economy by creating jobs. They want fiscal ruin. They thrive on fiscal ruin. And they'll do everything they can to make sure we're in a full-blown DEPRESSION before next year's election. It's their number one priority. As for climate change... duh. It's real. But the Big Oil and Koch Brothers cabals will spend hundreds of millions if not trillions of dollars which they're hoarding, in order to set the public discourse to "prove" otherwise, all in the name of petroleum product profitability which they control. Time for citizens to tune out the rightwing media "experts" and pay attention to the scientists who know what the heck they're actually doing.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "“Arrogant” is a favorite buzzword to dismiss real authorities, whether they’re climatologists, evolutionary scientists, or 9-11 debunkers. Speaking from a position of expertise is not arrogance. Speaking from a position of zero expertise is." This part is right on. It isn't only in science either...look at the current economic debates. Economists, even very conservative ones, have been saying that slashing spending right now will damage the economy. The politicians, most of whom are lawyers or business people or doctors, all claim to know better. They take the one quarter of economics they took in college and pass themselves off as knowing more than the economists. Talk about arrogance.
Originally Posted By hopemax <<The middle class now has a whining sense of entitlement to match anything we see from welfare recipients. << And yet, that's why on my more positive days, I think that in the end it will work out. As much as the rich complain about how they pay so much in taxes and don't get anything, if their lifestyle were to take the hit, they would scream bloody murder. Education cuts will only go so far. Cuts to things like clean air, safe food and clean water will only go so far. Hopefully, it won't take China level or 70's "we can set a great lake on fire" levels of pollution. We'll, have to see how the natural gas fracking plays out. Our power and technology grids will have to be improved unless everyone is happy with Asia leading the way with them. I see the next thing the GOP wants to go after is highways. But not much gets more people riled up than pot holes. They damage your car and people get a bit testy about that. Certainly, businesses that rely on a maintained system of roads to move their goods. Not that there won't be serious attempts to undermine education, the EPA, and everything else. But one morning, people will look outside and say, "This is not what I wanted." But it's probably 20+ years out.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And of course, I have the right to be treated as an equal in technical debates even though I don’t know jack.<< This is similar to what I've posted in the past from Charles Pierce, author of "Idiot America." His thesis (which I happen to agree with) is that Americans are more concerned with fairness than truth, which leads to a war on expertise. We can't have a climate scientist on TV saying there's climate change without someone else representing the other side, so let's dig up...Ted Nugent! Michelle Bachmann, Or if we're really feelin' it, Victoria Jackson! When everyone's an expert, no one is.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I've said it before, but the most vocal dunderheads on the right are not 'conservatives' -- they are reactionaries. The term conservative has been misapplied for quite some time now. On the environment, I'm a conservative. In that I think we should, you know, CONSERVE it as much as possible. Work at maintaining a proper balance between commercial interests while not destroying the environment for centuries. Sometimes this means altering plans to preserve a seemingly 'insignificant' owl or type of fish. That's a conservative approach. The reactionary approach, is to instantly be an eye-roller and use air quotes to scoff at "science" that you don't understand at all. Reactionaries stake out a position and dig in, facts and evidence be damned. They are not conservatives. I wish actual conservatives would start taking that word back from the reactionaries and making that distinction.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And this thread, this is why I still come to LP despite being past the mouse. It is very hard trying to navigate the cuts and hear people thinking they are experts talk about waste when they do not know what they are talking about, or the implications. No sense of history, evidence or need for positive interventions. As to the original point, while the UK has had very few sunny days for a couple of years, and we have a brutal winter with record snow falls, that is the weather. The temps over time are increasing. The evidence that ships can now navigate North of Canada in the summer tells us that the climate change is having an impact. There is validity in question whether this is a natural cycle or man made, or a little of both, but what is the harm in trying to make a positive difference?
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "As to the original point, while the UK has had very few sunny days for a couple of years, and we have a brutal winter with record snow falls, that is the weather. The temps over time are increasing. The evidence that ships can now navigate North of Canada in the summer tells us that the climate change is having an impact. There is validity in question whether this is a natural cycle or man made, or a little of both, but what is the harm in trying to make a positive difference?" Right! The deniers forget that with the warmer climate overall, the weather becomes more drastic, and, in fact, can get colder in places. It ends up being more extreme on either end, with not much middle ground. Also, your point about making a difference is so right. Deny or not, what is the harm in trying to preserve what we have? So you don't agree that the climate is getting warmer and it could be man's fault, or a trend...why bury your head in the sand and continue waste? It's like in order to deny it exists, you also have to consume as much as you can and screw the future. I've never understood that approach. My parents are that way, and I don't get it. They are also huge "nature" people who love the outdoors and animals, they are avid mountain bikers too...total disconnect. I think a tiny percentage of them are also believers that "the rapture" is coming any day now, and they won't have to worry about conserving anything. I know that sounds crazy, but I was brought up that way (which could explain my parents). Never mind that the Bible tells us that we are stewards of the planet God left us. Again, another total disconnect.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I think a tiny percentage of them are also believers that "the rapture" is coming any day now, and they won't have to worry about conserving anything<< And there are denominations built around the imminent end of the world. We periodically get junk mail from the Seventh Day Adventists, inviting us to come to presentations at nearby Campion Academy to learn about why the end is upon us.
