Originally Posted By Mr X So I've known this guy since college, nice guy, but anyway he started a "let's talk politics" thing on Facebook and I lamented the fact that quality, affordable health care has apparently gone down the drain...his reply: ***Dave- his unsuccessful jam of the health care bill was not due to his lack of left wing principle. In fact, quite the opposite- his positions and style of politics are so left that he started the battle in his own party which created the delays. That beast of a health care bill is a rotten, communistic, piece of special interest serving garbage which is unconstitutional and un-American. Rahm Emanuel? Centrist?? Huh?? "Never let a good crisis go to waste." Rahm Emanuel? That guy is a poster-boy progressive; lie, cheat and steal all the way. He comes off more left than the President does; the President is more shady about it and keeps it behind closed doors (mostly, accept for that dreadful State of the Union address). Universal health care is the open door for full-blown socialism and the edge of communism. Not only would it change our constitution (which is why they want to push it through), but it would render all of our foundational republican principles obsolete and lost forever. We would cease to be the United States of America. We would be the new USSR- United Socialist States of America. Is that what you really want? *** *sigh* After picking my jaw up off the floor and considering what to write (at first I was fired up for "full diatribe" mode, tearing into the whole torture/fascist/shredding the constitution meme that I consider closer to "destroying America" than affordable health care), I just left a simple note and I'll probably walk away...cause this is just making me insane. There are just so MANY of them! My reply... ***Wow. That's a lot of right winger talking points right there. I won't go bit by bit, except to say I think your facts are off on a good deal of it. And I need to mention that, living in Japan, me and my family have access to low cost, quality health care (yep, it's a socialist thing...BOO!), and so do millions of America. Yep, it's the "socialist" medicare plan and the government run veterans hospitals. So if you really think that makes America become Russia, then you must realize that we're already there and have been for many decades. ***
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I wonder how he feels about this week's announcement by Anthem Blue Cross that they were going to raise rates by as much as 39% this year? How does he feel about the United States ranking 37th among global health care systems -- and the fact that we pay twice as much per capita to rank 37th than France does to rank #1? (We pay three times as much as Italy, the #2 health care system in the world)
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< *sigh* After picking my jaw up off the floor and considering what to write (at first I was fired up for "full diatribe" mode, tearing into the whole torture/fascist/shredding the constitution meme that I consider closer to "destroying America" than affordable health care), I just left a simple note and I'll probably walk away...cause this is just making me insane. >>> I recently very briefly reconnected with a friend I hadn't spoken to in years. Both of our political views had changed since we last spoke. Without going into details about specific political stances, he did come up with a great observation about some mutual friends that we've both known for 25+ years: there are a handful of them that you simply can't have a conversation with these days about current events because they've become "fully indoctrinated." I couldn't have come up with a better, more-descriptive term. In my personal life, I find that I can have a conversation about current events and/or politics with most people. Some of them I agree with on most issues, others I have a variance of opinions with, and still others I disagree with on almost every topic. But regardless, I can generally have an interesting, respectful, and insightful conversation. The one glaring exception is those that consume large quantities of right-wing indoctrination media (Drudge Report, Fox News, and AM radio). It's bad enough that any political discussion is totally nonsensical, despite the fact that I might agree with them on certain issues and that I could have a productive conversation with someone that had even more extreme views but was not indoctrinated. The larger problem is that the indoctrination so affects their psyche that conversation on just about ANY topic under the sun turns into a far-right political discussion in a matter of minutes.
Originally Posted By Mr X I've never thought of you as particularly indoctrinated, Wahoo. Do you see yourself that way?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper No, not at all. Just a little humor. But, if you had your toes in the shallow end of the dark side you might see how we all seem to fall under the same generalities any time conservatives are discussed here.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But, if you had your toes in the shallow end of the dark side you might see how we all seem to fall under the same generalities any time conservatives are discussed here.*** Would you say that the rant my acquaintance wrote seems reasonable?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Well, I agree with a few of the points. I do think the Presidents style of politics left his with as much trouble with his own party (or factions of it) as with the Republicans. And, I also think Emmanuel has a lot of influence in that regard. Where most of the right starts to lose me is when they grossly exaggerate to the point of calling the President a communist. That is the type of hyperbole (present in both extremes) that turns me off. I don't want to give up on the political process...but neither party is doing much to want to keep me engaged...and sometimes I get the sense that it is the way they want it.
Originally Posted By DAR Well said wahoo. In the end all these people care about is only themselves and don't give me that crap that the Democrats are different, they're not, both parties just are just concerned how much money they can get from lobbyists and such. I have no desire to vote in the 2010 elections and in 2012 if the name Palin is anywhere near the Republican ticket I'm staying home.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But, if you had your toes in the shallow end of the dark side you might see how we all seem to fall under the same generalities any time conservatives are discussed here.> To be fair, I think some of us have gone out of our way to say we distinguish between thoughtful conservatives like you (and my parents, and my brother-in-law, and a friend I've known since I was 5...) and what SuperDry called the "indoctrinated." And I've met indoctrinated lefties too. One thing I've noticed about the indoctrinated of both stripes is an almost complete lack of humor. They tend to be almost joyless, certainly when they get into "political mode." They'll laugh at the other side, of course, but poke fun at their side and they either go into "joyless prig" territory or get angry.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I really believe that in my lifetime we are going to see a successful "Youtube" candidacy. I think the power of the internet to influential the election process has not been fully realized. The internet may, in fact, be the way to let the "average" American become a real factor in politics. You don't have to agree with the Tea Party movement to agree that it at least is getting attention. And, that is happening with no sense of direction or leadership.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << You don't have to agree with the Tea Party movement to agree that it at least is getting attention. And, that is happening with no sense of direction or leadership. >> The Tea Party wouldn't exist without the corporate backing of the News Corporation and Rupert Murdoch. It is hardly a grass roots movement.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>You don't have to agree with the Tea Party movement to agree that it at least is getting attention. And, that is happening with no sense of direction or leadership.<< Can't find it, but I recall recently reading an article where someone pointed out that the Tea Party Convention with something like 500 people got coverage all over the news - not just Fox - while a 300,000 people anti-war rally a couple years ago barely rated a mention. I'm starting to wonder if it's getting more coverage than it deserves, because it's a good, ratings-grabbing story?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper There is no doubt that the beginnings of the Tea Movement are questionable. But, I do believe that the sentiments of those who subscribe the ideas of the movement are prevalent in America today. I think there are people on both sides of the aisle who feel their party is being led by the extremes. I've said it before. My wife is a Democrat and I am a Republican. But, she and I agree on many, many things. And, we both agree that our party is letting us down. So, I think there is a tremendous void just waiting to be filled. That void won't be filled by the Tea Party or Sarah Palin...but I think there is a window of opportunity that is growing larger every time the two parties fail to do their job.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << But, I do believe that the sentiments of those who subscribe the ideas of the movement are prevalent in America today. >> Which sentiments? Racism, bigotry, or idolatry of capitalism?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I do believe that the sentiments of those who subscribe the ideas of the movement are prevalent in America today.<< Which reminds me of another article I can't find (I sense a trend here) that cross-checked Tea Party supporters with their positions on other issues. They were all over the map on just about everything, with one glaring exception: Just about every one of them hates Obama's guts. They also individually tend to assume that the rest of the Tea Party Movement agrees with all their views. Which it doesn't. (See: the Wingnut Fight thread)
Originally Posted By wahooskipper You are fixated on the Tea Party itself. I'm trying to make the case that it isn't about the Tea Party...but the idea that people are not happy with the two parties. Congress's appproval rating is abysmal and the President has thus far not had the impact he (and others) expected him to. I did not watch the Tea Party stuff on tv and have only read a little bit about it. But, if the underlying principle in the movement is they they feel that their concerns are not being met by those in Washington then I can absolutely appreciate that sentiment.
