Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ok folks, since I am now resolved to the fact I am now more of a Disney historian than a fan (given little of the modern Disney excites me, but the past of Disney was awesome). I have a question for us to debate. Walt's vision of EPCOT, I wonder where in the ideology spectrum this would fit. Given all the debates in the real world about mass transit in the US yaya or nay. Socialised medicine. Free markets and the impact on the economy etc. On one level you could argue that EPCOT would have been the epitome of free enterprise, where efficient transport runs to various communities and cutting edge companies develop their ideas and product sets. And of course Walt was a card carrying member of the GOP. But on the flip side, the very notion of shared infrastructure and community cohesion is very socialist in it's leanings. Or perhaps Walt was a great centerist in his thinking of building grand communities while allowing commerce to flourish. I wonder what you guys think? Particularly when we have Celebration as well. In the UK, most planned communities - Port Sunlight, Bourneville, Welwyn Garden City, Milton Keynes were a mix of the two, but through a push on the commercial, the social needs and solutions become more pronounced too. Now ideally I do not want this to get moved to world events, but in reading more and more about Epcot again recently, I have wondered, what was Walt really hoping for and what would he thing today?
Originally Posted By u k fan Interesting question Dave, on the face of it I think a mix of the two, but I don't know. In many ways Walt was so visionary had this come about as he wished Epcotism may well be the accepted term for a third option by now. As an interesting aside I heard some professor on TV a few weeks back refer to the British Museum as Epcotist in it's approach. Thought it was quite cool though I don't doubt it was meant as a slur!!!
Originally Posted By Mr X To be honest, your thought provoking comments made me think back to what it was that he did and didn't propose, and I don't particularly recall him proposing all that much in the way of commerce. Rather, it seemed like it was more of an insular "model city" idea (granted, he died before his ideas really got fleshed out...a real tragedy!). As for the political side of things, it's hard to really put a label on it since it was to be a community rather than a country (or maybe that's just my myopic thinking), but if I were to give it a label I might call it corporate sponsored (Disney) selective (no "non workers", everyone handpicked) Communism (all citizens are equal of worth and value and share all worth and value equally). So, CSSC.
Originally Posted By mousegeezer Walt was a capitalist down to his very soul. What made him different was that he understood that you provide the public with a unique experience at a fair price. I wish the current board of directors would remember that. Epcot was to be the future. Maybe with a touch of globalism. But, in general it was just the idea of what the future could bring.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I will have to say that I am a firm believer in the idea that it just would not have worked. Just a quick look at Celebration which didn't have near the restrictions as EPCOT would have, didn't/couldn't work because of Americans idea of individual rights. A tightly conjoined community of stepford Wives just wouldn't have made it, no matter the ideals. I feel that had Walt Disney lived to see EPCOT built it would have probably brought the entire Disney Company crashing through the floor. Yes, I am aware that I will be hated for that last statement, but, I really believe that. Walt was a person with a great imagination and ability to entertain. Create a workable society? Not so much. To many people involved and not enough animatronics.
Originally Posted By Mr X Ah, but how do you know he didn't plan to populate the place with animatronics? ;p
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom When I think of Walt and EPCOT I prefer not thinking in absolutes. EPCOT was probably more of a "fancy" with Walt than intended to be a home spun reality. To better understand Walt's vistion of EPCOT I think its more helpfull to put politics aside. For example, Walt envisioned multiple layers of public transportation. Putting politics aside this makes absoultely perfect sense. When you think about it having a society which depends on an individual means of transportation is redundant. It contributes to traffic congestion, air pollution ( when talking about the internal combustion engine ), decreased green" space as society continually builds more roads and wider roads with increased number of lanes. Mass transportation in the form of monorails, people movers, trains, etc just makes perfect sense. Walt got it right! I think when you start dropping political party names and theologys ( socialism, communism ) you start to get boggled down preconvieced emotions. Its better to stay away from that sort of stuff.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Also remember the GOP of Walt's day is NOT the GOP of today. I agree that labels will not fit because they're constantly evolving and rarely work. Look at the Dem's today - the party has hard core left wingers- true liberals as well as moderates and even some conservative Dem's who were elected in last election in the anti Bush vote. To call someone a Democrat today would be confusing as well as to where exactly they fit. As for Walt- the one other thing was his ability to fly by the seat of his pants and make changes turning on a dime. His vision of EPCOT was also based upon a late 50's - early 60's Camelot vision of suburban utopia....a quick look around today shows that no infrastructure can insulate us from economic and morality changes. It's a different world today..a lot is much better, some is much worse... but neither represents the society Walt was going to try and shoehorn into his vision of EPCOT -- like Woodstock, it was a moment in time, but that moment has passed
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Figures it would take a Commie like Dave to start a thread like this one! So much I want to say, but I won't ... I'll just think it. And I doubt very much that Walt would recognize the GOP today. Pretty sure he believed in making the world a better place for all, not just the wealthy ... and that he had common sense on things like evolution. I don't think he'd recognize the WalMarted 21st century USA anymore than he'd think 'they built my EPCOT!' when he drove his Escalade through Celebration.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***And I doubt very much that Walt would recognize the GOP today. Pretty sure he believed in making the world a better place for all, not just the wealthy ... and that he had common sense on things like evolution.*** Mourning the glory days of the Nixon Republicans. Who'd a thunk it!? ***I don't think he'd recognize the WalMarted 21st century USA anymore than he'd think 'they built my EPCOT!' when he drove his Escalade through Celebration.*** Walt Disney revered idyllic Main Street, U.S.A. Walmart killed it.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Walt Disney revered idyllic Main Street, U.S.A. Walmart killed it. << Killed it then defecated on it.
Originally Posted By Quiet Lurker "EPCOT -- like Woodstock, it was a moment in time, but that moment has passed." IMHO this ^ is the perfect way of thinking if you are walking down the path of "what could have been" on almost any grand idea.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Mourning the glory days of the Nixon Republicans. Who'd a thunk it!?>> Sad, ain't it? But I don't think anyone from Nixon to Reagan would recognize the neo-con, religious right, ignorant masses that have taken over the party now. ***I don't think he'd recognize the WalMarted 21st century USA anymore than he'd think 'they built my EPCOT!' when he drove his Escalade through Celebration.*** <<Walt Disney revered idyllic Main Street, U.S.A. Walmart killed it.>> WalMart killed a whole lot more too ...
Originally Posted By MPierce >> But I don't think anyone from Nixon to Reagan would recognize the neo-con, religious right, ignorant masses that have taken over the party now. << I think you are very misguided in your opinion on that one. However I would like you to look across the isle, and tell me how many stanchions of liberty, freedom. and justice you see over there.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Hi guys, I've been on the road and want to dive in to this debate. It will have to wait until the weekend when I get a little spare time. Do want to pick up Tom's point. I am not talking party politics per se,but you cannot divorce ideology from a vision perspective. The transport element and manageed communities is very socialist in nature, but the idea of big business running it or being left to develop their products and services is very commercial in thinking. I honestly think Walt was bouncing between the two on the spectrum. I need to return to this, sadly real work in social architecture is taking me away (2 deaths, record results on exams, and a new school build, as well as a new vision blueprint for children services - it has been a busy week - and that's just work). And for the record Spirit, I am only a commie if you speak to the Tea Baggers. In reality, I am a little left of centre - a liberal democrat if you will, with socialist sympathies and entreupenurial aspirations.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<,but you cannot divorce ideology from a vision perspective.>> Oh course you can! What are you saying that you have to be a pinko commie police hating Liberal to actually appreciate Mass Transportation? LOL.... Don't feel bad Dave according to my President and his Administration I am a Terrorist because I attended an anti tax rally ( anti CNN rally ) in front of my state capitol on April 15th.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And you used to be a Social Worker? Tax dollars pays for Social Work! I'm not a commie, nor am I police hating, and I have mixed views on Mass Trasport. But yes, I do not think it is possible for someone to totally divorce themselves from ideology. To do so would be a lie, would it not?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And attending a protest is everyone's democratic right. Whether it is for a sensible reason? Well that is down to each individual to decide ;-)
