Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs I'll keep this one short and simple; It's the definitive (and only) book out there about the Disney Villains, but not it's not entirely, in my opinion, without its flaws. I love the book and the profiles and the pictures, but there are a few complaints that I have, such as limited profiles on some of the Villains, as well as some baddies going unnamed and being identified as their trait (Stepmother, Butler, Hunter). I also didn't care for the inclusions of Brer Rabbit and Ichabod Crane. I'll add more opinions later, but for those of you who have this book (or just read it), what are your opinions on it? What do and don't you like about it? What would you do to revise it if you could, etc?
Originally Posted By basil fan I have the book and I like the book. Great pics, lots of preliminary artwork (a 2-page spread for The Wolf, just for CuriosWolfSo), and it covers the less-popular films, which many authors don't care to do. Without re-reading the entire book, I remember that it seemed like Frank & Ollie were prejudiced against villains they didn't actually work on. Or maybe they were just more objective about them. Also, I disagree with some of their assessments of certain villains as weak. After all, we don't want every villain to be the same, do we? If some are comical and others deadly serious, that's okay in my book. If some are murderous and others somewhat less dangerous, well, variety is the spice of life, IMHO. Now, I quickly re-read the most crucial part of the book, the Great Mouse Detective section, and it perfectly illustrates a problem. Frank & Ollie don't really discuss the villains, they only report on the making of the movie (which is not unwelcome) and repeat other people's opinions. Couldn't they watch the newer films agan and give us their assessment? There is a nifty chart of villains and their animators in the back, but it doesn't list Fidget or Creeper, 2 henchmen who are more important than the Pike and the Horned King's warriors. Look at the many faces of Prince john sketches. Doesn't it seem like the 'scheming' and 'suspicious' drawings are mis-labeled? No way is Brer Rabbit a villain. Period. He may have some traits that are not admirable, but it takes more than that to make one a villain. Ichabod's not a villain, either. I don't even think of Fagin as a villain, although he certainly is in Oliver Twist. He just seems like a regular guy driven by desperation to steal (or try to steal). Aladdin, anyone? BTW, I mean no disrespect to Frank & Ollie. I love those guys! Basil of Baker Street <a href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/basil/bakerst.html" target="_blank">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/ basil/bakerst.html</a>
Originally Posted By CuriosWolfSo >>(a 2-page spread for The Wolf, just for CuriosWolfSo)<< You read my thoughts exactly, basil fan, I love that big picture of The Wolf though it seems to cram The Wolf's middle part of his body, making it hard to see The Wolf's whole body. I like the animation drawings of The Wolf, even they're not The Wolf's "in-your-face" ones (The other book, "Walt Disney's Nine Old Men & The Art of Animation" by John Canemaker, has those drawings) >>it covers the less-popular films, which many authors don't care to do.<< Right again, Basil fan! While the other books seems to pretend that Disney didn't do any animation between "Bambi" & "Cinderella" and don't mentioned the ones that didn't do well at the box office. F&O do talk about these villains during that "Package Features" era and the lesser-known villains. F&O's book on the Disney Villains is one of the best, even with the flaws. (F&O seems to like some villains better than the others, especially the ones that they personally worked on themselves) Still they do give us their best thoughts on why some villains worked better than the others and what makes them so memorable that years later, they still lurks around in our thoughts after we have grown up.
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs <<basil fan: There is a nifty chart of villains and their animators in the back, but it doesn't list Fidget or Creeper, 2 henchmen who are more important than the Pike and the Horned King's warriors.>> They don't even HAVE a picture of Creeper in the Horned King's section...they have Gurgi though. Two other characters that were listed as Villains were Colonel Hathi and King Louie. I can see the case of the latter since he did kidnap Mowgli, but Colonel Hathi? What's interesting is that Louie is also a Villain in the Upper Deck trading card set, but he's Baloo's best friend in everything else: Jungle Cubs, TaleSpin, Disney on Parade, Disney on Ice and Parade of Stars. Beast was also featured on some Villain merchandise as well. He was in the sticker set and rubber stamp set in the early 90s. Frank and Ollie also mention how Tod was programmed by instinct to tease the dogs and raid the henhouse. I don't remember seeing that. I recall Chief waking up and chasing him, which led to the melee in the henhouse. But apart from the nitpicky flaws, I love the concept art in the book, as well as the finished designs. There's a lot of Villainous characters that were not mentioned in the Creator section. Nothing for Creeper and Fidget like basil said, as well as nothing for Felicia, Chief, Mr. Snoops, Iago...did we really need to see who animated the fire in Bambi?
Originally Posted By ToonKirby >Nothing for Creeper and Fidget like basil said, as well as nothing for Felicia, Chief, Mr. Snoops, Iago...did we really need to see who animated the fire in Bambi?< Well, the fire was more memorable then any of those characters ... And you have to remember that "Bambi" was made over 60 years ago, so every sliver of flame was hand-drawn. - Kirby moviedearest.blogspot.com
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs ^^^True, but I personally felt that Ronno and Man were the true Villains. Man killed Bambi's mother, as well as other critters and caused the fire. Ronno was the "visual" Villain and had the obligatory fight with Bambi. Yes, I realized that F&O used the "human nature" and "instinct" like they did for Si & Am and Amos Slade, but it seemed like an excuse when they couldn't think of anything else to say. And Ronno's animators weren't mentioned in the index either; it was Fire and the Dogs. For my Collection of Evilâ„¢, I have a trading card of Ronno; you couldn't have one of Fire or Man or the Dogs. There was also a Heroes & Villains ceramic figure set that came out in the 80s featuring Ronno, Bambi and Faline. It's usually featured on eBay, along with other sets (Alice/Queen, Mickey/Broomsticks, Merlin/Mim, etc) I'm aware that Man joined Cruella and The Evil Queen on AFI's 100 Heroes and Villains...I still say that that special should have been split up in two nights. I can just see it now: "Back in my day, animated films and cartoons were drawn by HAND and with multi-plane cameras! We didn't have that newfangled CGI to fiddle around with!" "Stop joking Grandpa! The next thing you're going to say is that there were T-Mobile Sidekicks or Blackberrys either!" And as I stated before, my dream Villains book would be if F&O teamed up with Dave Smith, John Grant, John Canemaker, Marc Davis and Ward Kimball to make one super mega Villains book. The 4 Old Men would talk about the making of the films and the history, as well as their opinions on the Villains. Grant would provide all the details on the Villains (quotes, voice actor, songs, manner of demise, etc), and Canemaker and Smith would provide any other trivia or tidbits would mentioning. The book would then be required reading in all high schools across the country, as well as several art schools.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle I have the villains book, and I really enjoyed it. I agree there are a few flaws with it, but that's the same with every book. One thing I did remember from reading it was that a fairly large number of villains were described as being weak / ineffective, which I thought was a bit strange. I agree with Basil Fan, having had another look, the Prince John pictures are DEFINITELY mislabeled!
Originally Posted By basil fan About those Heroes & Villains figurines, 5BR...There wasn't a Black Cauldron or Great Mouse Detective figure, was there? I have the figurines made by Goebel & the music boxes, which I think are the same idea as yours, but I haven't been able to find a list of which movies are in your series. Thanks. The Tarzan Equation <a href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/disney/tarzan.html" target="_blank">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/ disney/tarzan.html</a>
Originally Posted By CuriosWolfSo >>And as I stated before, my dream Villains book would be if F&O teamed up with Dave Smith, John Grant, John Canemaker, Marc Davis and Ward Kimball to make one super mega Villains book.<< Add John Lounsbery who did his fair share of animating the villains. mostly the Disney wolves, to that list, 5BR, and I would definitively buy that even it may break my bank. >>The 4 Old Men would talk about the making of the films and the history, as well as their opinions on the Villains. Grant would provide all the details on the Villains (quotes, voice actor, songs, manner of demise, etc), and Canemaker and Smith would provide any other trivia or tidbits would mentioning. The book would then be required reading in all high schools across the country, as well as several art schools.<< Yep...as long as it has a detailed story how The Wolf was created and animated with lots of pictures of the drooling Wolf. Too bad that some of those animators, especially John Lounsbery, have passed away.... :O(
Originally Posted By ToonKirby >And Ronno's animators weren't mentioned in the index either; it was Fire and the Dogs.< It is highly possible that information on who animated what on the early animated films was either incomplete or, more likley, non-existant. - Kirby, <a href="http://moviedearest.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://moviedearest.blogspot.c om/</a>
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs <<Liberty Belle: I have the villains book, and I really enjoyed it. I agree there are a few flaws with it, but that's the same with every book.>> Yeah, I love that book too; it's my bible...although I really should get around to finishing Mary Blair and The Nine Old Men... <<basil fan: About those Heroes & Villains figurines, 5BR...There wasn't a Black Cauldron or Great Mouse Detective figure, was there?>> Without checking on eBay, let's see how well my memory is; the sets included: -Snow White/Hag -Pinocchio/Stromboli -Mickey/Broomsticks -Dumbo/Elephants -Bambi & Faline/Ronno -Cinderella/Tremaines -Alice/Queen of Hearts -Peter Pan/Hook (not sure about this one) -Lady/Si & Am (not sure about this one) I *think* the next ones were Cruella/Puppies, Aurora/Malef... I know that there was one of Mim and Merlin.
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs <<Liberty Belle: One thing I did remember from reading it was that a fairly large number of villains were described as being weak / ineffective, which I thought was a bit strange.>> What was interesting was that it even mentioned that for some of the more popular Villains (Prince John, Queen of Hearts, Medusa). Perhaps they felt that they didn't have as much gusto as the major Villains. All of the Villains had some sort of weakness, although some were more stronger than others. When Hook was being chased by Tic-Toc it was 'believable' as opposed to Medusa's weakness when seeing Bernard and Bianca. I thought that Amos Slade was an interesting Villain. In "part one" where Tod and Copper are kids, he's a comic buffoon, with shades of Elmer Fudd. In "part two" where Tod and Copper are adults, he becomes a very deadly, serious hunter (complete with obligatory thunderstorms), even as to breaking in the wildlife preserve to kill Tod. Edgar has the infamy of being the weakest of Disney's Villains. I actually read two storybook editions of The Aristocats before I saw the movie. The current version has Roquefort figuring out the crime, whereas in the Disney Treasury, O'Malley figures it out. In a way I was disappointed when Edgar revealed to Frou-Frou that he did it. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though; he did put up quite the effort in abandoning the cats, attempting to get his items back from the dogs, and then trying to get rid of the cats again. He does get some recognition in Disney's Greatest Villains and the DK books that came out in 2004. The writers also put The Horned King in a bad light, probably because the film underachieved at the box office. He had a very good appearance and makes the occasional appearance in Villain merchandise (posters and chess set). I never considered Fagin a Villain since he was trying to make a living and was on Sykes' payroll. Again, why is that it's okay for Aladdin and Robin Hood to steal, but not Fagin? Speaking of which, the writers also mentioned the lack of a true victim-Villain relationship. Even though Sykes didn't really have a lot of screen time, I'd say that his kidnapping of Jenny and the limo chase was pretty tense. Another thing: McLeach, Sykes and Medusa all kidnap children, one each. Cruella and the Baduns makes off with 99 Dalmatian puppies. There were *99* of the puppies and only *3* dognappers. That's 33 puppies each. Veruca Salt had 100 squirrels to deal with and there was only ONE of her. Here's one of the figurines I was talking about: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Disney-Heroes-Villains-BAMBI-Faline-Ronno-250_W0QQitemZ250143853540QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1391QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Disney-Her oes-Villains-BAMBI-Faline-Ronno-250_W0QQitemZ250143853540QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1391QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a>
Originally Posted By CuriosWolfSo >>Veruca Salt had 100 squirrels to deal with and there was only ONE of her. << *Amen* She was not a Disney character at all and Warner Bros made both movies. Funny in the first movie, she was called "a bad egg" and the second one, "a bad nut" Okay, back to the topic.... I wish someone did a book on the Disney's animated TV series' villains as well.
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs I actually found a sealed-in-package figure of Mekanikles on eBay, but I felt that the price was a wee bit high...I've seen figures for Abis Mal and Haroud Hazi Bin as well. You know...Maleficent was a cool Villain, but she really didn't have any depth to her. She spent a lot of time with speeches and zapping her goons and making entrances and exits. She waited around for 16 years sitting in her castle instead of hunting for Aurora herself (at least the Three Good Busybodies messed up big time for her). Even Malef's sorority sisters such as Cruella, Ursula and the Evil Queen were constantly plotting, constantly scheming and setting out to do the task at hand.
Originally Posted By basil fan The TV shows have a slew of great villains. My favorite is Don Karnage from TaleSpin. That Mekanicles figure--is he jointed? I have a jointed action figure of him & Abys Mal, but have never seen one for Haroud.
Originally Posted By CuriosWolfSo Yeah, Don Karnage was a cool villain! No wonder that he was a popular 'walk-around' character at the theme parks during "The Disney Afternoon" era.
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs Yes, in our collection of 1992 DL vacation pics, my sister is getting an autograph from Senor Karnage. I'm not sure if the Mechanikles figure was jointed; it was a picture of the sealed package and it was hard to tell. In fact...I still have the picture of it from eBay! It was taken in 2004. Check your email basil, because I'm sending you the pic. I was disappointed with a lot of the Disney Afternoon Villain figures in the fact that they came with a lot of accessories but THEY WERE NOT DESIGNED TO HOLD THEM AT ALL!!! The ONLY ones that were joined and articulated were Karnage and Dumptruck (those two are the TaleSpin representatives in my COEâ„¢). Not only could you move the arms and legs, but the hands and feet as well, AND they could hold their weapons! The television representatives have their own little clique, and most of them are represented in pairs. They include: -TaleSpin: Don Karnage and Dumptruck -Darkwing Duck: Steelbeak and Megavolt -Gargoyles: Xanatos and Demona -Ducktales: Magica De Spell and The Beagle Boys (although this could also be considered in the comics area as I do have a figure of the Phantom Blot) -Lilo and Stitch: Dr. Jacques von Hamsterviel (Disney Store plush) -Kim Possible: Shego, Drakken and Monkey Fist (McDonald's Happy Meal toys; I found out about them when I was watching "Super Size Me") I have considered Aladdin, but it's always been hard to find the figures on eBay, or they'll be too expensive. I haven't found a listing for all the figures as well; I was hoping to have had Mozenrath in there, but I'm not sure he even was a figure.
Originally Posted By basil fan I agree about modern action figures, and it's not only Disney. They can't hold their accessories, and many can't even stand up. Lots of them are under articulated. Some have such weirdly-posed legs that they only stand in one position; move that leg a fraction, and they fall again. I bet it's because they think only collectors will buy them and then keep them in the package forever. Me, I enjoy them more out of the package. Jonny Quest Glitches <a href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/glitch/questglitch.html" target="_blank">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/ glitch/questglitch.html</a>
Originally Posted By FiveBearRugs Someone had suggested to me to actually keep the cardboard portions of the package after I took out the figures, so I did. I have the cardboards from the Talespin and Gargoyles figures, as well as the 'nametags' from all the other figure packages I've collected.
Originally Posted By CuriosWolfSo >>Karnage and Dumptruck (those two are the TaleSpin representatives in my COEâ„¢). Not only could you move the arms and legs, but the hands and feet as well, AND they could hold their weapons!<< Same here but was disappointed that they never come out with Dumptruck's partner Maddog and Gibber who always whispers helpful hints to Don Karnage in the TV series. They were advertised on the back of the cardboards which the "TALESPIN" action figures were on but nothing happened. :O(
