Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 OK, you knew the Spirit wouldn't leave ya all for that long without dropping in with some provocative thoughts and comments. Well, here's one: right now, HKDL has improved enough that during seasonal events, like the amazingly well done Halloween celebration that I have experienced, it IS better than the stale, wall-filled, poorly maintained, Walmarted MK that so many fanbois think has never been better. I won't defend, and never have defended, the thought processes that allowed Disney to fool the Chinese government and build -- to quote Roy Disney -- 'a park on the cheap'. Cutting two lands and over a dozen attractions set that park up for failure and showed just how out of touch management at the time was ... and I am speaking of everyone from Eisner to Iger to Pressler to Rasulo to Goodman to Sklar. So ... I won't apologize for their collective stupidity. That said, I loved HKDL when I first visited in 2008. And I enjoyed it more than that last week ... so much so that I am now an APer ... all for less than the cost of a one-day, one-park ticket in O-Town. I know what the fanboi apologists will say. Has Spirit eaten some bad Chinese food? Did some strange gal in Kowloon spike his drink with something more potent than pixie dust? Nope. HKDL is still a park with no Mansion, no Pirates, no Pan ... no a lot of things (although they do have construction walls up for Toy Story Land ... I'm thinking of offering pics to Doobie for $8,888.88 since I doubt Sunshine will be headed here soon). But what HKDL does offer is all of the basics: A spotless, well maintained park. A cast that exists to serve guests and seems to enjoy it, even when there is a bit of something getting lost in the translation. True quality entertainment ... E-ticket caliber stage shows ... live bands ... music etc. Amazingly detailed seasonal entertainment from haunted houses that actually add two major attractions to the park (and would never fly in bumpkinland --WDW!) to a GREAT night Halloween Parade that even puts the MK's highly entertaining Boo To You Parade to shame to menus in every restaurant tailored to the season to huge (some might say even too much) seasonal merchandise. Oh, and all of that is included in the price of admission. No upsell hard tickets. Oops, I even forgot to mention the new Nightmare in the Sky pyro show and the Ghost Galaxy overlay on Space Mountain. Sure, the park needs attractions ...and the way they were going to town this week, it's obvious they are on the way (although I HATE the carnie crap that will arrive first). But on one hand you have a new park in a beautiful setting that gets all the important details right ... and one that is getting better every day. And on the other ... you have a stale, falling apart, dumbed down MK that is a pale shadow of what it was 15 years ago. At the end of the day nostalgia only gets you so far ... and riding around mindlessly on the AFKaTTTA because there's really nothing you want to do speaks volumes. For this Spirit, at least, HKDL is more enjoyable for a day's visit than MK is. I'm looking forward to seeing what HKDL will be doing for Christmas because they sure got Halloween done right ... OK ... this should be good!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Sorry for the triple posting. Could be the new computer. Could be the NSA. Could be the Halloween Spirits. But it really was a triple awesome post!
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer All HKDL needs is attractions. It already has the spirit, feel, and quality of a Disney Park. They basically have the exact inverse of what we have.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///a new park in a beautiful setting/// You mean like the most breathtaking backdrop by far of any Disney park with those mountains---or the tropical tree and grass lined entry to the resort? 'beautiful' is an understatement. ///that gets all the important details right/// I like the brick pavers on Main St. instead of tired asphalt, cool original effects on the Jungle Cruise and a much nicer venue for the Lion King show compared to Animal Kingdom's.
Originally Posted By barboy2 word of caution........better schedule in some sights around Kowloon and Hong Kong proper like the giant Budha, Victoria Peak tram ride, harbor cruise and/or gold shopping+buying 'cause HKDL, as nice as it is, is still a 60-75% day park especially considering how empty it tends to be.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 Honestly, that sounds like a good thing. Ah for the days of meandering around a quiet park being able to appreciate the attractions as you come across them. I go to WDW in Jan most years, and haven't enjoyed quiet in far too many years for the crap weather I endure!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros While I do agree that in many cases, HKDL comes out ahead, overall it is still severly lacking. In HK, there is a certain element of fantasy in every single attraction. Yah, it's fun, but after a while it all starts to feel the same. The fantasy stylings of Tomorrowland and Adventureland have a slightly different flavor than Fantasyland, but at the end of the day it feels like a lot of very similar experiences. I didn't really pick up on that much on my first visit, but I really felt it earlier this summer. It's all very well executed, but it all kind of feels the same after a while. On the other hand, MK has a lot of variety of stuff, but it's not necessarily a very good execution. The lands still have a pretty unique feeling, though that has been lost some over the years. The park has slow-moving attractions, show-base attractions, a few thrills, and everything in between. There are a lot of variety from AA's, films, boats, cars, and coasters, and the park just has a certain texture to it. While I agree that they are definitely making a ton of progress at HKDL, a lot of that just further reinforces the plastic-feel that the park already has. I've never been there at Halloween, so I suspect that it feels a little different at that time, but it just feels like a factory-produced theme park. Strangely, the trees growing in didn't make that feeling go away, like it has at MK. What's there is very well done, but it still isn't enough "True quality entertainment ... E-ticket caliber stage shows ... live bands ... music etc." I couldn't agree more. The shows are really what makes the park stand out. They may not be entirely unique in the world of Disney, but they are done at a level that is beyond the other versions. (Sadly, and ironically, the show-based Jungle Cruise is just painful there)
Originally Posted By Mr X I agree with Ferret, if anything that cartoony vibe bothered me even more than the SEVERE lack of attractions. OTOH, agreed with Spirit that the cast is wonderful, the location idyllic, and the overall entertainment offerings are quite good. To barboy, I would have to say that in terms of sheer perfection DisneySea's brilliant use of Tokyo Bay beats HK by a nose...it just makes it feel as though the park goes on forever. The mountain backdrop is a very close second place, however.
Originally Posted By leemac Spirit - you rabble-rouser. The issue is that both parks are at complete different points in their life cycles. MK is a mature park that is deemed to have sufficient experiences. HKDL is just five years old and was built initially like a Disneyland Starter Kit - it is effectively a start-up. As I'm always banging on it all comes down to menu planning. It isn't just a question of the Opening Day roster (which was light) but a failure to appreciate that seasonal events could partially compensate for that lacking attraction count - increasing the perceived VfM to guests. It should have gone all out on Halloween, Christmas, Easter and summer event immediately - these are all cost-effective compared with the alternatives (permanent attractions). Halloween has finally put the park on the map in HK and the mainland but it shouldn't have taken 4 years to get there (really last year was the first big Halloween spectacle although this year's event is even bigger). I continue to be bemused that MK has virtually no entertainment offerings of note now. Entertainment venues like Fantasyland Theater (DL) and Showbase (TDL) aren't world class venues but at least they are able to host permance-based shows when management opt to do so. HKDL and DLP have excellent show venues (especially DLP that has 4 major venues) and these are important parts of a guest's experience in an MK-style park. They are as important as any other element - they encourage folks to spend longer in the park (read: spend more) - Golden Mickeys is a near 30-minute show - that is more than 3 go-arounds on iasw. I just never understand MK management's reluctance to add a decent theater venue (the closest we got was a Hyperion-style building that was nearly approved for the 20k lagoon space - management refused to spend $30m on it in the end). HKDL has always been a beautiful park - I'd argue that its setting is far superior to TDS - but there was no credible plan for post-TL'06 (the triumvirate of UFO Zone, Stitch Encounter and Autopia). It is a nonsense that the park didn't have a proper 5- or 10-Year Plan to add experiences. Band-Aid fixes like the Toy Story Zoetrope and the coach-cum-Turtle Talk will never drive attendance. And if you think that the Halloween Parade is good just wait until you see the 5th Anniversary parade - it is awesome. It is up there with Jubilation! IMHO - huge scale and lots of fun.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***HKDL has always been a beautiful park - I'd argue that its setting is far superior to TDS*** I don't know quite what your definition of "beautiful" is, and that's certainly in the eye of the beholder (I can only think of relatively "ugly" parks like MGM, Studios Paris, and of course DCA), but I wouldn't call the park beautiful per se. The setting is gorgeous, no doubt. The backdrop is incredible. But the park itself? I think it's rather fake and cartoony, as I've said a million times. Perhaps okay for Fantasyland (more of a toontown vibe), but terrible for the other two lands (Main Street is a zerox copy of California so I suppose that's as attractive as California is, which is fine but far from original). As far as that setting being "far superior" to DisneySea, I simply disagree. As I said, the backdrop behind the castle is very lovely but DisneySea takes the bay and makes it a part of the park...as though the park extends virtually forever (into the sea...). The Hong Kong park...has pretty mountains behind the castle. I don't see how that setting extends beyond very cool kodak moments in front of the castle (the castle which you could see in Anaheim too...so that's another carbon copy problem).
Originally Posted By leemac <<DisneySea takes the bay and makes it a part of the park.>> I just don't know how you can say that when the "sea wall" is so visible. It is throughout Cape Cod and Port Discovery. There is a clear delineation between the park and the bay.
Originally Posted By leemac <<But the park itself? I think it's rather fake and cartoony, as I've said a million times. Perhaps okay for Fantasyland (more of a toontown vibe), but terrible for the other two lands (Main Street is a zerox copy of California so I suppose that's as attractive as California is, which is fine but far from original).>> You find the whole park cartoony? I'm not sure what I can really say to change that view - I just can't even begin to comprehend how you find Adventureland to be "toony". To a degree I can see why you might say that for Tomorrowland - it is supposed to be a playful space port. Again I've no idea how you would find MSUSA "toony". Each to their own I guess. And the whole resort is stunning - from the various entrance sequences (like the MTR and the highway up over the crest of a hill) to the landscaping to the hotel areas. I personally find the entire setting far better than TDR.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I just don't know how you can say that when the "sea wall" is so visible. It is throughout Cape Cod and Port Discovery. There is a clear delineation between the park and the bay.*** Suspension of disbelief, I suppose. You see it your way, I see it mine. There's clearly a corridor for the S.S. Columbia to go sailing out of the park at any moment, that doesn't indicate to you that the park is part of the ocean? Does for me. And I've always loved it, from day one. I suppose we just see things differently Lee, which is of no surprise to me whatsoever. ***You find the whole park cartoony?*** All with the exception of Main Street and the castle, which I found to be a carbon copy of Anaheim for the most part. ***I'm not sure what I can really say to change that view*** Nothing you could say would change my view, that's the way I saw the three lands I visited (in other words, Fantasyland was SORT of overly cartoony compared to others, and the other two lands followed suit). ***I just can't even begin to comprehend how you find Adventureland to be "toony".*** It just didn't feel *real* to me the way other Adventurelands do (and yes to an extent they are cartoony too, just in Hong Kong it felt much more forced), and to almost the OTHER end of "too real" we have Harambe at DAK which I know that you don't dig so much but I'm pretty okay with the realism of it. It's all a matter of degrees, and compared to other Adventurelands in other Magic Kingdoms, this one feels cartoony and fake to me...perhaps too the rather over-the-top Jungle Cruise with all the special effects adds to that as well (since it's pretty much the only attraction, it certainly speaks to how real, or hollywood cartoon, the land seems to be). ***To a degree I can see why you might say that for Tomorrowland - it is supposed to be a playful space port.*** Tomorrowland bothered me much more than Adventureland did (Adventureland, if there had been JUST a few more hints of realism...perhaps a trail or two to explore, or maybe an attraction or two of a small nature that were more reality based). Tomorrowland and Fantasyland seem to merge so seamlessly that they seem like much the same thing to me. I understand the notion that it's a "whimsical space port", I suppose I just don't buy it. Might as well rename the place "future cartoon land". ***Again I've no idea how you would find MSUSA "toony". Each to their own I guess.*** Nope, Main Street was NOT. And I liked it. I LOVED the mountains behind the castle. But as a complete facsimile of Anaheim, it was less than inspirational to say the least. ***And the whole resort is stunning - from the various entrance sequences (like the MTR and the highway up over the crest of a hill) to the landscaping to the hotel areas. I personally find the entire setting far better than TDR.*** TDR is in a bad location, nobody would argue that fact. Probably the worst location of the five resorts, but there's not much they can do about it other than spruce up the resort as much as they can. So on that point, you are very right. HKDL DOES have an idylic setting, I loved that aspect of the place. As does Florida, with their uber-expansive property to do with as they please. TDR and Anaheim are in much the same boat, they are located in crappy urban areas and can only do so much (Anaheim has worked wonders with local city government, that much has been apparent for the last decade or so...I don't know that the Tokyo resort could do much with the location they're stuck with but I would certainly agree that it sucks, fwiw). Paris, I can't say...I've never been there.
Originally Posted By leemac <<TDR is in a bad location, nobody would argue that fact. Probably the worst location of the five resorts, but there's not much they can do about it other than spruce up the resort as much as they can.>> Unfortunately the Resort Line made it much more apparent - particularly the stretch from TDS to Resort Gateway - being able to see the Chiba infrastructure just takes you out of the Resort. I always wondered what it would be like to only be able to see "inside" the resort (i.e. completely black out the right hand side in the direction of travel) - only being able to see TDR **might** work....
Originally Posted By leemac <<There's clearly a corridor for the S.S. Columbia to go sailing out of the park at any moment, that doesn't indicate to you that the park is part of the ocean?>> Sadly not - especially as the flat straight wall continues right through Port Discovery. I guess the road and the Resort Line put paid to any other options.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Tomorrowland and Fantasyland seem to merge so seamlessly that they seem like much the same thing to me.>> Wow - really? Architecturally they are so distinct - Fantasyland is so rural and medieval - there are imperfections everywhere as it is supposed to be hand-built. Lots of wood and craftmanship. Tomorrowland has cleaner lines and is more urban. I just can't grasp your argument there.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ///a new park in a beautiful setting/// <<You mean like the most breathtaking backdrop by far of any Disney park with those mountains---or the tropical tree and grass lined entry to the resort? 'beautiful' is an understatement.>> Yes. That is exactly what I mean The setting is just awesome. The only Disney comparisons that come close for me would be MK back when that's all WDW was and it seemed so far away across the SSL ... and later arriving at EC via monorail. But HKDL's natural beauty just takes things to a whole 'nother level. Of course, I could point out that HK's 'other' park, Ocean Park, has vistas that are breathtaking and make HKDL's seem less ... but that would open a whole new discussion on how the HK SAR is choosing to play with The Mouse and run 'its' two parks. If I started talking about that, well, then I'd have to start ripping TWDC again. (spent today at Ocean Park on an 'unannouced' visit with a friend/colleague who specializes in Western Media and culture here and got his start in the hospitality industry ... his take on what is going down between China and Mickey and Co. was fascinating ... but the massive expansion going on at OP tells the tale ... and leaves Disney is a very vulnerable spot even AFTER their $900 million (USD) expansion is completed in three years ... and, oops, I think I did it again!) ;-) ///that gets all the important details right/// <<I like the brick pavers on Main St. instead of tired asphalt, cool original effects on the Jungle Cruise and a much nicer venue for the Lion King show compared to Animal Kingdom's.>> The bricks are very nice, and possible with no street cars ... and I had my first night JC and the attraction truly rocked because I finally had a skipper with near perfect English and delivery and the effects work so much better at night ... also agree on Lion King, but I'd also point out that most of the land was simply 'borrowed' from DAK to begin with ... remember too the dino-themed area with rolley coaster and CTX AA Dinos and Boneyard kiddie area were supposed to go in the park, but were axed.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Ok, I wanna go! Let's set up a group trip. Who's in?>> Well, since I may be in Asia right on into 2011, I am! BTW, did you do DL last week? How was the trip?
