Originally Posted By TomSawyer <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/11/mormons_will_accept_homosexuality_mormon_church_leaders_use_revelation_to.html">http://www.slate.com/articles/..._to.html</a> Interesting article that references the LDS' own essays on polygamy and it's treatment of non-white members as evidence that there will likely be another revelation that shifts LDS policy toward gay marriage. FTA: When you look back at these stories—not just the reported facts, but the way the church has recast them—you can see how a reversal on homosexuality might unfold. First there’s a shift in the surrounding culture. Then there’s political and legal pressure. Meanwhile, LDS leaders have to grapple with the pain of gay Mormons—now acknowledged by the church as “same-sex attracted”—who sacrifice for an institution that forbids them to love and marry. Within the church hierarchy, less conservative voices gradually replace leaders who have died or stepped down. Eventually, the time is right for a revelation. When you pray hard enough, and you know what you want to hear, you’ll hear it. The church is well along this path. Two years ago, it acknowledged homosexuality as a deeply ingrained condition and said it “should not be viewed as a disease.” Today, in its essay on polygamy, the church affirms its defense of traditional marriage, but with a caveat. “Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard for marriage,” the essay concludes—“unless He declares otherwise, which He did through His prophet, Joseph Smith.” It happened once. In fact, it happened twice. When the time is right, it’ll happen again.
Originally Posted By barboy4 Give it time. I bet in 15 years outward LDS leadership will be joining the daisy chains on select cruise ships. How cool is that?!?!
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf I don't think the LDS church can ever allow gay marriage while clinging to their eternal marriage/family/progression doctrine. Ultimately, Mormons believe that they need to progress through life and the afterlife until they become like God, who they believe to be a man with a wife and children. There isn't a lot of wiggle room there...
Originally Posted By Dabob2 There didn't seem to be a lot of wiggle room with the whole "mark of Cain" thing either. When God can continually divulge new revelations to living people in real time, there's actually quite a lot of flexibility.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Sorry, it's just not going to happen. Eightdwarf is right. The "Law of Chastity," which says that sexual relations are only allowed between a married man and woman, is never going to change. The doctrines of Eternal Families and eternal progression are not going to change.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 We'll see. I agree with TS that they may be laying the groundwork already. That caveat "unless He declares otherwise" is big enough to drive a truck through.
Originally Posted By utahjosh The phrase "unless he declares otherwise" was used only in the circumstance of plural marriage vs. monogamy. And it's used in this context because God has allowed/commanded polygamy several times throughout scriptural history. God hasn't really gone back and forth on commandments like that. (There was a giant shift with Jesus Christ fulfilling the Law of Moses, but that's a different thing altogether.)
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Look, I'm not a Mormon or an ex-Mormon. ecdc can always address these things much better because of his greater knowledge. But he has pointed out many times that the Mormons have in fact changed policies that were supposedly eternal or divinely inspired. You always say this one is different, and then he provides very authoritative evidence that the same sort of thing has happened with policies that were supposedly just as set in stone. Mormons are the only ones to have done this, either. Not by any means. Catholics have done it. Baptists have done it. And I'm sure scads of religions that I'm less familiar with have done it too. And there's always a way to justify it or pretend that they haven't really done it. But they do.
Originally Posted By TeaPartyWave Cause gay marriage is SO important to humanity.....cause that 1% of the population that will ever participate in a gay marriage deserve for religion to throw out all their core beliefs. After all, having the gays feel good about themselves is really all that matters right? Otherwise your a hater , bigot, homophobe, and a racist who hates equality. There that covers it.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The LDS has changed deeply held policies in the past when they found themselves marginalized by them. When gay marriage is common and when the LDS finds itself once again on the extreme fringe of American culture, they'll change. They've done it many times before and they'll do it again because God tells the prophet that things have changed.
Originally Posted By Mr X Oddly enough, I think Josh is right on this one... Though the vitriol is strong in them, they are NOT the only ones. Not by a longshot. Just last month the Catholics, led by what has to be the most progressive Pope imaginable, couldn't even stomach the idea of "welcoming" those disgusting gays into their midst, and rejected their own Pope's wishes in their haste to re-word themselves back into appropriately offensive territory. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/18/catholic-bishops-gays_n_6008300.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...300.html</a> And don't even get me started on the fundies... The Muslims, in many cases, are still putting gays to death for their crimes, so there's that. So there it is. The Mormons are standing hand-in-hand with most major religions on the matter, and will hardly find themselves out in the woods anytime soon, at least not in the eyes of their religious brethren. It may happen, one day, maybe - but when it does, I think we'll all be dead and gone. Getting the governments to change on the issue is a far cry from getting major religions to do so.
Originally Posted By Mr X One caveat...we're talking here about the LEADERS of the churches, for the most part, and I think it's well proven that Mormon followers will not deviate from the directives of their leaders like most other rank-and-file church members of other faiths. I know some fundies who are perfectly okay with gay, even though their ministers are not. Catholics, by and large, reject stuff they don't like, no matter what their local bishop thinks about it. The threat of fire and brimstone ain't what it used to be, I guess. I don't know any muslims, so I can't say, but I tend to think they have their share of "casual believers" too, unlike the Mormons where that seems to be pretty much out of the question. SO, the interesting issue here when comparing this to the older stuff is, which way will the Mormon leadership bend when their own membership looks kooky compared to the rest of the world? It's a different conundrum they face, since they will surely have the support of other religions' leadership, which they did NOT enjoy on the polygamy front at any time, nor at the height of the civil rights movement when to maintain prejudice was becoming more and more unseemly, even for the entrenched faithful.
Originally Posted By oneyepete "we'll all be dead and gone" And someone will have done the baptism ordinance for you and all will be good. JK!!!
Originally Posted By Mr X Fine by me, I don't believe in that stuff anyway (though I can see why it's highly offensive to folks, and their families, who hold OTHER strong beliefs and would never consent to such a violation).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip People debating about religion is rather amusing. It is like a debate on which is better... a unicorn or a fairy. You believe what you believe, and there is very little scientific basis for it. Just let it be.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It reminds me of the first time I went to Speakers Corner in Hyde Park in London. Famously, anyone can put down a soap box there (sometimes literally), and pontificate and wax philosophical or political on anything they want. There's a long tradition there, and some later-very-famous people started off expressing their ideas there. So I went there thinking I might either a). catch the next Proust or Marx or Adam Smith or Kierkegaard or something; b). at least see some entertainingly off the wall wackos. Imagine my disappointment when, at least on that day, it was all religious nuts spouting their particular religion and occasionally haranguing the audience on how we needed to convert or go to Hell. It was semi-interesting when at one point they kind of turned on each other, each consigning all the others to Hell, but even that got boring pretty dang quick.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer It's a generational thing. Once the current generation of leadership begins dying off and are replaced by younger generations then things will begin to shift. The young just don't have the same conditioning that the old did when it comes to homosexuality and don't fear it. And of course the movement toward increased secularization in the west isn't going to hurt.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I will admit that a misunderstanding, a fear, and a disgust of homosexuality has been a standard in the history of Mormons. (Kind of like the rest of America and mankind). However, it is not fear and misunderstanding of homosexuality that created the Law of Chastity and our view of God's plan for his children. And those things will not change. Others will disagree, but these doctrines are much more crucial and important than the history and doctrine involved with plural marriage or blacks and the priesthood.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "However, it is not fear and misunderstanding of homosexuality that created the Law of Chastity and our view of God's plan for his children." Of course it was. It's fear and misunderstanding that creates all hateful laws like this.
