Originally Posted By ecdc I felt sorry for John McCain during tonight's debate. Not mocking pity, but genuinely sorry for him. I was struck watching him that he's a decent man. I remember seeing him on Letterman, Leno, and Conan where he was at ease, funny, and witty. He agreed to film one of Conan's celebrity "secrets" segments and was hilarious. This is a man who served his country honorably, who appears to love it and who truly wants what's best for it. It was never more obvious than tonight that this is an older man who missed his shot. In 2000, it was McCain's turn, and he was blindsided by two of the most despicable people in politics, George W. Bush and Karl Rove. Had he won and then defeated Gore, he probably could've been a decent President as "the Maverick." And now, 8 years later, he seems to remember what Bush did to win, and now McCain's sold his soul to win too, capping it off with Sarah Palin. Seriously, after watching McCain, Obama, and Biden in action, for all their flaws, makes it even more clear. Throw Palin into the mix and one of these things is not like the other, and I don't mean her gender. What a joke she really is, and that was obvious tonight. If McCain does lose, I hope he can go back to the Senate and return to being an honorable statesman.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I felt sorry for John McCain during tonight's debate. >>> What are you talking about? According to the current poll of Drudge Report readers, McCain won the debate, with 64% saying he won as compared to 33% that said Obama did. Since your average Drudge Report reader could not be more fair and balanced, McCain clearly won the debate in the public's eye. Be forewarned that you may hear or read otherwise in the mainstream media. You might even hear that scientific polls show that Obama was generally considered to have won the debate, but pay no mind to the man behind the curtain. Those "other" media sources are hopelessly biased.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney I agree with all of that ecdc. McCain seems like a good man and I KNOW in his heart of heart, he believes he is doing the right thing. I felt bad for him, again not in a pity way and he did fine for what I saw, but I think he knows its slipping away. And yeah, he SHOULD have been the nominee in 2000 and its sad he didnt have that chance. There are MANY things I didnt like what he did in this campaign and its obvious its catching up to him poll wise and the new mudslinging has lost a little respect for him. But I guess he figures its a means to an end and he's doing everyone a favor. Part of me would like to see him get it because I dont think it would be all that bad....but with Palin, its hard to even think about that anymore sadly. If he doesnt win, I hope he does return to the Senate.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<I felt sorry for John McCain during tonight's debate.>> Thanks for posting this ecdc, because I was thinking the same thing this evening. I like John McCain…I always have. But this isn’t him, and I honest-to-God think he knows it too. I believe that the 2000 election tarnished McCain’s campaign ideology to some degree. After winning in New Hampshire, the slimy campaign Bush waged in South Carolina sold McCain on the idea that the rabid attacks will work to bring down a surging opponent. And under normal circumstances, I think it would be working; but these of course are far from normal circumstances. <<If McCain does lose, I hope he can go back to the Senate and return to being an honorable statesman.>> Unfortunately, I think that McCain will never be able to live down the campaign he’s been waging as of late. Hopefully he can though; it would be a tragic way to end a distinguished political career. Damn, if only he had shunned the far right and chose a more moderate ticket. Palin and the extreme right just scare the living crap out of me.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>"Be forewarned that you may hear or read otherwise in the mainstream media. You might even hear that scientific polls show that Obama was generally considered to have won the debate, but pay no mind to the man behind the curtain. Those "other" media sources are hopelessly biased."<<< What?!? You can't be serious. Ignore the majority opinion and go for one so far to the other side that it is almost cartoonish. Can't see it happening! Sorry. And PS. I'm still undecided. That's pretty unbiased, in my opinion.
Originally Posted By mawnck Only 64% on Drudge? Not that I keep track of such things, but isn't that considered epic win for Obama?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <What?!? You can't be serious.> He wasn't being serious. I thought Chris Matthews had an interesting comment last night after the debate. He said "the dog that didn't bark" was the fact that McCain didn't bring up the Ayres "connection" that Palin and other surrogates have spent the past 4 days yammering on about. And this despite attack after attack from McCain on other things. That said to Matthews that, deep down, McCain knows damn well the Ayres thing is bogus, since Ayres and Obama don't even know each other well. So even though he's allowing Palin and surrogates to talk about this non-stop, he couldn't bring himself to mention it, because he knows it's dirty pool of the worst sort. Sad, then, that he IS letting Palin and surrogates talk about it non-stop, hoping people who aren't paying attention hold it against Obama.
Originally Posted By Mr X I'm starting to come around to ecdc's point of view, and Dabob your point is well taken. He didn't bring it up (I think) because he knows it's lame and dishonorable. He's been "allowing" a lot fo stuff but I can't imagine he's really okay with it. His replies to direct questions on it have been very telling (dismissive, and "just look at the record" kind of stuff..no heart behind the vitriol). Currently reading "Faith of my Fathers", which doesn't really help when it comes to trying to demonize this particular currently misguided hero.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Currently reading "Faith of my Fathers", which doesn't really help when it comes to trying to demonize this particular currently misguided hero >> I've read that, too. If that's the only thing you have to read about Senator McCain, then it is confusing to try and match up the book's depiction vs. what you see on the stump. I'd suggest looking at some other books not fully endorsed by McCain. The Nightingale's Song by Robert Timberg is a decent read. It's actually about several Naval Academy graduates from the same era as McCain and how they got caught up in some misguided adventures during the Reagan days (Ollie North, Poindexter, etc.). There is a more realistic depiction of McCain in that book, well balanced in my opinion.
Originally Posted By Mr X I'll try and check it out..thanks. (I've no doubt that "Faith" has its' self-aggrandizing moments, and all that goes along with that...but if even one tenth of what he said happened to him in those camps actually happened, well...he's been to hell and back in a way that few of us will ever be able to understand, I think that's fair to say)
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ There's really nothing to dispute with the prison camp depiction. There are enough accounts from other prisoners in the same camps that pretty much agree with the horrors that went on there. That McCain survived those days is really a testament to the amount of fight he has in him -- which is quite a lot by all acounts. The question I ask now is what does he use all the fight inside him for -- is it for the betterment of the nation, or the betterment of a small number of wealthy patrons that have shepherded his political career as a "conservative."
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I liked John McCain going into this election. As recently as August I was feeling happy that, for the first time in my life, I truly felt that I'd be okay with whichever of these two candidates won. Then came the kindergarten ad. And Palin. And the clap-on, clap-off suspended campaign hysterical stuff. And now the latest mud. So, while I'd like to say "this is the real McCain," I'm just not feeling that way. There's a reason the candidates have to record "I approved of this message" in their ads. The reason is so that they alone must be held accountable for the content of those ads. We've had 8 years of explaining things away, blaming blunders on anyone and everyone but the resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., and I'm pretty tired of that. So I'm displeased in a big way with how McCain has behaved in his erratic, try-anything campaign. With a few more weeks to go, who knows what's next? If McCain loses, he'll make the rounds on talk shows and in interviews, patching up the legacy he himself has blasted holes in. Perhaps he'll be witty and engaging and perhaps I'll be ready then to forgive. But I can't forget, and I think the last couple of months have revealed a very unsettling, unpleasant side to Mr. McCain's personality.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So, while I'd like to say "this is the real McCain," I'm just not feeling that way. << Sorry, that should have been "ISN'T the real McCain"
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<But I can't forget, and I think the last couple of months have revealed a very unsettling, unpleasant side to Mr. McCain's personality.>> I respectfully disagree, Kar2oonman. I don’t think this is necessarily part of his personality, just what has been drilled into him as political expediency by his experience with neoconservatives. To win an election according to neocon advisors, you have to malign your opponent to the point of hatred, inciting your supporters to feel the same. Hannity and Rush’s verbal lashings of McCain in 2000 are indicative of that. McCain succumbed to the pressure. That in and of itself is a reason not to vote for him—shows an inherent weakness—but I have trouble convincing myself that this rabidity and extremist portrayal is a deep-seated character trait that was somehow overlooked for the past 23 years. Had it been in him, he might have beaten Bush in 2000. Regardless though, you are correct that it will be hard to forget, let alone forgive his latest actions.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 I pretty much agree with Kar2oonman. And I have no respect for turning the other cheek and letting someone be your henchman. That is just as devious as doing it yourself. You are suppose to be a LEADER, you are running for the most important job in the country. I think he's wanted it so badly he sold his soul and in a way his integrity. That really bothers me. I don't hate McCain but no way, no how will he get my vote.
