Originally Posted By Manfried If you look at the entire property on Google, it seems like there's not much land left that hasn't been untouched. Yet, they don't seem to take care of some of what they have. Particularly in some of the theme parks. Nor does it seem like they really got traffic flow for cars all that well either. So I am wondering if Walt Disney World has been overbuilt. Thoughts?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Not so sure... it seems to me that less than half of the property has been developed. There are very large undeveloped areas northeast of the AK and southwest of Fort Wilderness. I think for the most part traffic flows pretty well considering the number of people that are there. The only place that seems to get really jammed (besides parking lots at park close) is Buena Vista Drive around Downtown Disney. That gets pretty nasty at times!
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt I'm not so sure it was overbuilt as much as it was poorly planned and developed. They started out with some forward engineering and construction techniques, and very progressive telecommunications, transportation and energy systems, but the impression today is that WDW is just a very nice tourist trap.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 In some ways I think it is. Things like a race track sitting in the MK parking lot which at the time it was built had little to do with their core business. I agree that what was once a master plan of planning has become less intentional. I remember when the Swan and Dolphin were built and I said to a friend in Imagineering that you could see them behind France dwarfing the Eiffel Tower, he said we know but they had no control over that placement of the hotels, that Disney had changed and not for the better. My biggest issue with the size is that at times it seems that Disney is unable to figure out how to keep up with it all. Their record on maintianence and cleanliness has been spotty over the years. The other thing I have thought is that because of its size no one person can have a complete vision for the property, which is why is looks the way it does today.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I don't think Walt intended for WDW to become "Walt Disney World's of Hotels", so YES it is overbuilt and badly managed. They can't no longer take proper care of what they have. Navigating JFK airport is more enjoyable than WDW. At least they have an electric tram conneting all their terminals. I wish I could say the same for WDW and their ghetto bus services.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I don't think Walt intended for WDW to become "Walt Disney World's of Hotels">> I think he did. That is the reason he bought up half of Central Florida... he wanted to control all surrounding development, which he had been unable to do in Anaheim. Part of that development would of course be places for all of WDW's visitor to stay. Where I think the difference would be is in style of hotels. Given his preliminary design of EPCOT, I imagine he would have envisioned more high-rise hotels like the Contemporary rather than massive sprawling resorts consisting of three-story buildings like the All Stars. I also assume he would have planned for a modern transportation systems connecting his hotels... something that obviously never happened.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I think the transportation on property is the biggest failure of Disney planners. I think Walt would have appreciated the need to have the various price point hotels and, as such, the difference in architecture of the hotels. Disney Studios wasn't well thought out, to be sure. But, they had plenty of room set aside for Animal Kingdom and Epcot and even the roadways make sense. But, moving large amounts of people around the property doesn't seem to have been much of a concern for anyone.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I think Walt would have appreciated the need to have the various price point hotels and, as such, the difference in architecture of the hotels.>> Obviously no one will ever know, but I think he would have opted for the smaller footprint of high rises. Just because they are high rise doesn't mean they need to be Deluxe level hotels. Resorts like the existing Values and Moderates take up massive amounts of real estate (as do Saratoga Springs and Old Key West). Just the space consumed by these resorts makes transportation more of a problem than if you had higher density development.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Obviously no one will ever know, but I think he would have opted for the smaller footprint of high rises. Just because they are high rise doesn't mean they need to be Deluxe level hotels. Resorts like the existing Values and Moderates take up massive amounts of real estate (as do Saratoga Springs and Old Key West). Just the space consumed by these resorts makes transportation more of a problem than if you had higher density development.<<< I agree in a way about the use of land for resorts, but, really, what else would they have done with that land? They couldn't have theme parks spread out over 10 or more places. I hear a lot of talk about the problems with transportation, but having spent a good chunk of life in public transportation, I can honestly say that I think they do a tremendous job with it. The buses are much maligned but they are very well organized to the extent that they can be. Free wheeling vehicles are constantly confronted with obstacles that cannot be predicted on a regular basis. As they are the system is simple and as efficient as can be expected. Could they have used some other form of transportation, sure, but at what cost and who was going to pay for that. Monorails and people movers are OK for short looping things but they are also limited in flexibility because of that. If a Monorail breaks down in the middle of a rail, nothing moves again until that problem is resolved. If a bus breaks down another can be sent to take over. It takes time because they do not have a bunch of spare buses just sitting there with a driver, revving their engines anxiously awaiting a call. Not only is that not financially sound it is also environmentally foolish as well. Considering what they are dealing with, I think they do well. Personally, I don't use them but not because I think that they don't do the best job they can, but because they are doing the best job they can and I find it much more efficient to just drive my car there and back. Then I don't have to completely rely on luck to have a smooth experience.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 I also think that the transportation at WDW isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I think that many of us dream about a WDW that had sleek monorails or people movers moving people all around the property. But the reality is that idea was dead many many years ago. Even though a monorail rumor comes along every so often, I worked for the old Disney Transportation company for a bit in the early 80's and even then there was very little excitement about extending the monorails on property. As for overbuilt...the issue for me is the question of at what point can you no longer care for or have a grand vision for what is on property. I think that is the biggest problem for WDW at the moment. With park vp's basically being the people who keep the parks running and Imagineering being neutered in creative decisions for the parks, who is looking at the big picture there? I would say no one. When Disney announced the Flamingo Crossing project my first thought was WHY? You have sections of Downtown Disney empty, empty shops, a Cirque show that has seen a drop in attendance and a DisneyQuest that is rarely updated. WHy would you want to build and maintain another shopping area on property? What are they thinking? It made no sense.
Originally Posted By SuperDry << When Disney announced the Flamingo Crossing project my first thought was WHY? You have sections of Downtown Disney empty, empty shops, a Cirque show that has seen a drop in attendance and a DisneyQuest that is rarely updated. WHy would you want to build and maintain another shopping area on property? What are they thinking? It made no sense. >> I thought it made a lot of sense, looking at it as a general concept and without access to the actual numbers. Just because there are vacancies at DTD and a destination video arcade is losing money doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity for another form of lodging and dining. Consider that when WDW is not at full occupancy, this doesn't mean that the off-site hotels were totally empty and the off-site restaurants had no diners. Despite any problems on-site, even including perhaps over-capacity, that really doesn't speak one way or the other as to whether there's money to be made with off-site properties. And Flamingo Crossing was for all intents and purposes designed to compete with off-site, not to augment what's already on-site. IIRC, it wasn't even going to be Disney branded. Rather, it was going to be all established non-Disney national brands, or local independents, in a master-planned development off-site from WDW, but where Disney just happened to be the landlord and therefore design and enforce a master plan. Guests in theory wouldn't even know Disney was involved. It may not be the right time to go forward with it, but unless you can make the argument that there's no dining/lodging money to be made in Orlando serving WDW guests from off-property, there's no reason that Disney couldn't get into the game and make money. And I would think that the tenants could charge at least a small premium for "like kind and quality" offerings that are elsewhere off-property but in a nice environment that's not an eyesore.
Originally Posted By Blufusion12 They should in my opinion have stopped at the studios and taken the money Joe Rhode wasted on a wanna be deluxe Bush Gardens or a San Diego Zoo. All the money they spent could have added so much to the other parks. But Disney does not want competition. Either out build or buy you competition is their motto.
Originally Posted By SuperDry ^^^ I don't think it was expected, or even knowable, up front, when the saturation point as far as WDW parks would be reached. The addition of EPCOT and D/MGM added substantially to visitor numbers. Although as I mentioned before it had to be known that there was some point where the increase would dip below the cost of additional parks, I don't think that it's necessarily fair to say that it should have been obvious that DAK would push it over the line.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>>I think he did<<< Forgive me but where exactly did Walt mention on his video introducing EPCOT about the need for 25+ hotels on the property. I think he had bought the land in hopes of creating a real live community to showcase technology and be on the leading edge. Of course, he was a visionary but the people he left behind didn't believe this could be done and opted to turn the property into a vacation resort. I think Walt wanted a city with entertainment venues among the real needs of everyday living, hence, experimental prototype community. Littering the property with hotels of all sorts of tacky or tasteful themes hardly makes WDW of today the experimental community Walt had envisioned. So sorry RoadTrip but I disagree.
Originally Posted By Alltwelve I agree; I've never seen anything of him wanting a glut of hotels, but he also never mentioned any additional theme parks or water parks, either, other than the Magic Kingdom. He did mention an airport. Heck, his initial plans on that first sketch of the property had a swamp ride! Now, would we be better off with 25 resorts and 4 theme parks to choose from, or a swamp ride?
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "Of course, he was a visionary but the people he left behind didn't believe this could be done and opted to turn the property into a vacation resort." I know I would never have visited Walt's EPCOT. They were probably right.
Originally Posted By TP2000 WDW isn't overbuilt, it's just very poorly managed. It currently has the appearance and vibe that it is being run into the ground, unfortunately. And yes, the WDW bus system is horrible. It's inefficient, overcrowded, un-themed, slow and burdensome. I get it that you can't have a monorail or a ferry boat take you to every location you want, and buses do have a proper place in such a large property. But the very least they could do is design and operate the buses with a much higher level of professionalism and showmanship. Something like this bus, from Tokyo Disney Resort's excellently managed property-wide bus system, would do wonders for classing up WDW. If the WDW management even knew what class was. <a href="http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/301/8/b/Awesome_Tokyo_Disney_Bus_by_jaguarwong.jpg" target="_blank">http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs5...wong.jpg</a> Look at that bus driver smiling big and saluting the tourist photographer! Gawd I miss Tokyo Cast Members. Can you even imagine a WDW bus driver looking this sharp, and having this level of professionalism? I can't. <a href="http://www.tdrfan.com/around_the_resort/disney_resort_cruiser/disney_resort_cruiser.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.tdrfan.com/around_t...iser.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By TP2000 I Googled Disney World Bus Driver, and this short video was one of the first links... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxc-G52E-Xg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...-G52E-Xg</a> I rest my case.
Originally Posted By dagobert Tokyo has definitely the best themed busses, but they seem rather small. I think WDW needs bigger ones, like articulated busses.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost If I had to take a guess, articulated buses will be there before long. And as "cute" as those Tokyo buses are, you want to talk about non-efficiency for WDW, that would be the first thing pictured. WDW has more buses and more routes then 80% (guess) of municipal buses in the country. They are a utility not an attraction. The buses from Tokyo are to small, to themed, to retro and what everyone seems to forget is that a bus driver is a professional driver. They took different tests to get a CDL and you would be hard pressed to find anyone in this country that could carry off the music box monkey with a smile on their face. All that poor guy needs is a set of cymbals and a big key sticking out of his back. Sorry, it works there, maybe, but would be foolish looking in Florida.
