Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Cheap shot. Not to mention irrelevant to the discussion. Are you actually ON the union lines yourself Inspector? If not, then you and I have just as much ability to gather information as anyone else in any location (even halfway around the world).>> Not a cheap shot. Not irrelevant. And, no, I'm not currently working a UAW job. But don't try to act as though you have as much knowledge about Michigan union workers as I do. I was one. I was constantly pressured by Union reps to slow down my pace. My mother worked at a union job for all her working life. At every dinner-table discussion while I was growing up, I witnessed what a miserable work ethic she had, thanks to the UAW/CIO. I currently have a sister-in-law and other relatives who work at auto factories here, and I hear their rants about actually having to do work. Do you hear that a lot in Japan? If so, I'll apologize for comparing our situations.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo What I hate about Unions is it does not matter whether someone is hard working, productive and dedicated, or if they are a lazy poor performer, they push to get the same level of pay. And it is really hard to fire poor performers in a Union shop. In UK government it is easier to "restructure" than to get rid of a poor performer, and that puts everyone else through stress, wastes a lot of time, and money. So not great. On the flip side, the original Union movement was essential for getting fair pay for work, safety measures that were flaunted by corporations in the past etc. Unions and Religious sects have a lot in common. The original ethos was a good intent, but the manifestations over time have caused concerning issues, and require reform.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I've had to work alongside union and non-union workers on a couple of occasions. This was in an industrial environment with pipefitters, electricians, and other sorts of fabrication workers. The non-union shops were always the worst to work with -- shoddy workmanship, poor safety records, and more absenteeism. I don't have any experience in the assemply line manufacturing arena, but I think people are generally too harsh on the unions based on a few anecdotal experiences. The pay issue is also completely overblown. I've been in a number of working class neighborhoods in the midwest that are full of union workers -- they are not adhering to a living standard that is particularly lush or indicative of being overpaid.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt “Okay. You're saying that since there was CORPORATE greed, Union greed is irrelevant.” No, what I’m saying is that corporate greed has had a GREATER negative impact on the current economic situation than the relatively few lazy union workers in the workforce. “You're saying that the unioninzed laziness of US workers is not related to our current economic situation.” Don’t be silly. “You are so wrong.” In your opinion.
Originally Posted By hopemax FWIW, my uncle worked at Chrysler from the age of 18 until he took a buyout last year, I think that made him 63 when he left. When we were at my Grandma's 80th in 2003, he was talking about how lucky he was to have finally gotten one of those "cushy" jobs. The ones that are mentioned where you only work 15 minutes out of an hour. At his plant, they existed but they were limited in number, and they were all held by the "lifers." I wish I paid more attention to when he was talking about the previous 40 years he had worked and the number of ways he and his buddies had been almost seriously injured or killed, the ones that were seriously injured, and the number of medical problems they had because of the 40 years of back breaking type jobs they had to work at before they had the seniority and support of their co-workers to be given the cushy job. I only remember one, where my uncle said he had to work half upside down, back bent backwards to be able to stretch and reach a certain set of bolts for an entire 10 hour shift.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<You're saying that the unioninzed laziness of US workers is not related to our current economic situation.>> What percentage of the workforce is unionized? It's very small now. I don't know anyone in the private sector that is unionized. Not one person. And they weren't responsible for the whole housing bubble and its subsequent economy destroying crash. It was Wall St. that encouraged the handing out of loans like they were Halloween candy. And as for unions not being necessary, I offer this personal anecdote. My previous employer, even thought they were making record profits cut our pay earlier this year. Other than to quit and find another job we had no recourse other than to accept the pay cut. And we aren't lazy. I routinely was on the phone with our office in India at midnight after putting in a 10 hour day at the local office. Of course there was no overtime pay, because I am a "professional". Nevermind that I was constantly browbeaten to put in more hours, and the threat made for not complying was being laid off, which happened anyway.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<I'm not cheering that "good paying jobs" are lost. I'm only stating the obvious: Union greed (along with corporate greed) put us in the situation we're in.>> FWIW, I see the cheering all the time. Now that programmers and electrical engineers are hurting I encounter people who rejoice at this, because they were "overpaid". At the same time people wring their hands at the rising levels of unemployment as jobs continue to be offshored, while our business leaders scratch their heads wondering why the sales of imported: cars TVs computers furniture clothes etc. Just keep tumbling. But yeah, let's blame the few unionized workers that are left. Nevermind that 90% off all offshored jobs are non union. Since they were underpaid and overworked those jobs should have been safe, right?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder While there's a lot of bad things to say about unions, it seems to me we'd have a lot more unemployed if it wasn't for unions.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<While there's a lot of bad things to say about unions, it seems to me we'd have a lot more unemployed if it wasn't for unions.>> Interesting. How do you figure? I can see that union protectionism helps keep individuals who habitually show up at work drunk or hungover employed. Other than those employees, how does the institution of unions keep more workers employed? Okay. There's also the union protectionism that keeps non-needed workers on the job long after their positions become no longer vital. So, yeah, the unions keeps a few people employed who otherwise would not be. And because of the expense to companies that that this causes, prices of products rise, businesses go under because of labor costs, and industries collapse. In the long run, MORE people lose their jobs. And not just union people. The UAW likes to paint itself as "the common American against the corporation." But, in effect, it has always been "The UAW employee against all other Americans." And now we're seeing the real effects of their greed and influence.
Originally Posted By ecdc I tuned into NPR during the auto bailout a few months ago. It really was astounding hearing about the hold the auto union had. They talked to a former employee who made $86 an hour putting a panel on a car. No kidding.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Interesting. How do you figure? I can see that union protectionism helps keep individuals who habitually show up at work drunk or hungover employed. Other than those employees, how does the institution of unions keep more workers employed?" Inspector, there are other unions besides the UAW. We're all sorry for your exposure to them. Not everyone who belongs to one is a drunk piece of crap. Not every union is corrupt. Indeed, the vast majority of them aren't. Not every disagreement with you should be taken as a personal affront. My comment is based upon my anecdotal exposure to them, just like yours. I've never paid union dues. However, as a public employee, I piggy back on an SEIU contract. Many state and local governments are facing budget crises. Rather than take a hard look at how they spend taxpayer money, here in California, many government officials simply would rather lay people off. If not for unions, I can tell you and anyone else with 100% certainty that the public is much safer today and core services are still in place here. Cops, firemen, social workers, health workers, library personnel, animal control, specialized labor, etc., are all mostly still in place thanks to their unions intervening. Fire stations were going to be closed, vaccines not given, dead animal left on roads, roads not repaired, child support not collected, criminals not prosecuted or jailed, all that and more if unions didn't step in and prevent officials from taking the easy way out. Not every job got saved, not every hour was protected, but the public is much better off as a result. This is just my own personal knowledge. There are likely others in the private sector who could say similar things.
Originally Posted By dshyates You know, while driving around the coal fields of WV, overpaid and lazy aren't exactly the terms I would use for the miners that belong to UMWA. These are hard working folk that while living in nice moble homes I wouldn't exactly call them rich.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Yes, the UAW is something of an anomaly. My spouse belongs to a union (phone company), and good thing too. If not for the union, they'd have lost their health insurance years ago, and with his back problems, we'd be in a world of hurt right now. The last few contract fights were all about health care, and simply fighting to keep what they had. Not a better policy, not wage increases - just keeping what they had. It was a middle of the road policy, too, not "cadillac" or anything. Without the union, no question they'd have lost it.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Such is the nature of conservatives attacking the working class. Hold up a few bad apples to claim the entire orchard is rotten to the core and should be burned to the ground. As for jobs being eliminated and sent offshore... most of those jobs were not union at the time they were dissolved. Unions have been losing ground since Reagan took office in 1981, beginning with PATCO. As more and more manufacturing workers lost their union representation, more of their jobs started leaving the country. The busting of the union comes first, then the job gets exported, not the other way around. And don't forget the professional salaried jobs in engineering and computer technology. Those jobs were rarely unionized, but they started leaving for Asia and India, anyway, back in the nineties. Silicon Valley is a shell of its former self because tens of thousands of software engineering, IT, and technical support positions are now being done in Bangalore. Unions had nothing to do with that.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Yes, the UAW is something of an anomaly. My spouse belongs to a union (phone company), and good thing too. If not for the union, they'd have lost their health insurance years ago, and with his back problems, we'd be in a world of hurt right now. The last few contract fights were all about health care, and simply fighting to keep what they had. Not a better policy, not wage increases - just keeping what they had. It was a middle of the road policy, too, not "cadillac" or anything. Without the union, no question they'd have lost it. >> As our good friend vbdad has pointed out in the past from his vantage point as a former Fortune 500 executive, employer provided health insurance is in the cross hairs of Corporate America. Just as pensions have been replaced by 401(k) plans so too will health insurance be replaced with "savings plans" where the brunt, if not all the funds come out of the employees paycheck. Of course we Americans are too "self reliant" for a government single payer system (unless we are seniors of course, then we demand our Medicare!), so what this will mean is that tens, if not hundreds of millions of Americans will not receive preventive medical care.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Silicon Valley is a shell of its former self because tens of thousands of software engineering, IT, and technical support positions are now being done in Bangalore. Unions had nothing to do with that.>> Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. Bottom line. If you work in an office and are not in a "customer facing" position, then you are in danger of having your job offshored, especially if you work for a Fortune 500 company. And offshoring can work in strange ways. In some fast food locations the order taker in the drive through is not located locally. For now they are still in the US, but don't be surprised if someday your order taker is overseas.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Not every disagreement with you should be taken as a personal affront.>> I think I was reacting to other posters' misrepresention of what I had written. It happens. An example: I don't believe and certainly never wrote that everyone who belongs to a union is a drunk piece of crap. But thanks for the reminder that not all unions are the UAW.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "But thanks for the reminder that not all unions are the UAW." My pleasure.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster I belong to a union. I work for a major hotel company as a bartender. Bartenders in my area (Ohio) are paid less than minimum wage because they receive tips. Union bartenders are paid just slightly above minimum wage. I, for one, am glad the company I work for has to pay me a fair amount (minimum wage!)to do the job I do. Thanks to my union
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Thanks to my union<< I really do think it depends on the Union. I'm very sympathetic to Unions just from my study of the Guilded Age and the Progressive Era. I really don't think Americans fully appreciate just what companies are capable of doing to their employees when there's not people lobbying on their behalf or the government regulating them. But I also understand that Unions have become corporations themselves. Some act on behalf of their members better than others. I also don't think people in non-Union companies appreciate how much the threat of Unions does for them. My company does not have a Union. I'm grateful, because the Union that would represent us is not the best. But I'm also cynical enough to believe that my company would not offer the kind of good pay and good benefits without the threat of a Union moving in.
