Originally Posted By ssWEDguy There's been a lot of discussion about monorails, and whether we'll ever see any more. There's a need to justify the cost as compared to other forms of transportation. Way back when Walt first introduced his monorails at Disneyland, it was a novelty and an attraction. Then he extended it to the Disneyland Hotel. It was still a novelty and an attraction, but now had a serious transportation component. When he planned his Epcot City in his Florida Project, the monorails were going to be real transportation, major connectors of the main centers of his project. Peoplemovers would have been sub-feeders for the monorail lines. Things of course didn't happen that way after Walt left us. The monorails still were built, but they were a compromise attraction / transporation system. I would suggest that any new monorails should be justified on the basis of connecting major resorts to the parks, and perhaps with shopping districts. They shouldn't be considered as anything more than that, and not as a major assist at park open or close. The monorails around the Seven Seas Lagoon are just that. And the line that connects the TTC to Epcot at least adds to that. My question for the Epcot line -- it doesn't really connect any resorts to parks. There are no resorts on that line. Why not? Were resorts ever considered a possibility for that line?
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Things of course didn't happen that way after Walt left us. The monorails still were built, but they were a compromise attraction / transporation system.>> Actually, in the early days, the monorail was not a compromise system. Aside from the ferries, it could easily handle the transportation needs of WDW, as there wasn't much of a load to begin with... just two hotels and a theme park. Adding the Epcot line was a breeze too, as there still were no additional resort hotels and the increase of ridership more visitors would bring. <<My question for the Epcot line -- it doesn't really connect any resorts to parks. There are no resorts on that line. Why not? Were resorts ever considered a possibility for that line?>> A total guess here, but when the Epcot loop was established, there probably weren't future plans to expand the resort as much as the company eventually did. The rocket growth didn't come until Eisner came along. Were their plans to add resorts to the Epcot line after it was constructed? I don't think so, as I have never seen any rumor or suggestion from anyone... if there were, you'd think we would all know about it, just like we know about many Imagineered projects that never came to pass. <<I would suggest that any new monorails should be justified on the basis of connecting major resorts to the parks, and perhaps with shopping districts.>> Your sentence doesn't quite make sense. How does adding monorails to deluxe resorts and/or DtD justify anything? It adds a selling feture to those resorts, but it still doesn't justify the construction cost, when buses probably do it cheaper. If a monorail was cheaper than buses, I can't imagine why cheapo-Disney wouldn't have gone down that tube already.
Originally Posted By avromark At DL Walt just built them, they looped around, didn't take you anywhere really and even had a few "s" curves added in just for fun. So why not as a "Only at Disney" type of transportation.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<At DL Walt just built them, they looped around, didn't take you anywhere really and even had a few "s" curves added in just for fun.>> Walt wanted it because it was cool and he thought it was a viable future transportation solution, so he put it in Disneyland to demontrate it to the world. Same with the Skyway and the PeopleMover. Yes, they were attractions, but he saw them as more than that. So why not now? Because the novelty is over. Disney doesn't care about the attraction or show aspect of a monorail.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> How does adding monorails to deluxe resorts and/or DtD justify anything? << My point was that I think if anyone is trying to somehow balance-sheet justify monorails, that they should do it on the basis of simply connecting major resorts to parks and/or shopping. A monorail connecting your resort to Disney destinations should be the wienie. Suggesting that the monorails can do much by way of helping to empty a park in a hurry is tougher justify. I'm thinking 300 people per train, a max of about 3 trains every ten minutes. So a thousand people every 10 minutes, or 6,000 people can be moved in an hour. If those 6000 people are going to their on-property resorts, hooray. Monorails are the way to go. If they are going to their cars so they can drive off-property where they are staying, then fine, use the bus. >> Because the novelty is over. Disney doesn't care about the attraction or show aspect of a monorail. << But the novelty isn't over. Disney is the only place that does monorails as a form of transportation. That makes them unique -- something of an "exclusive" offering. They should be seen as that -- not justified on the basis of "number of guest miles moved" and compared dollar-for-dollar with buses.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<But the novelty isn't over. Disney is the only place that does monorails as a form of transportation. That makes them unique -- something of an "exclusive" offering. They should be seen as that -- not justified on the basis of "number of guest miles moved" and compared dollar-for-dollar with buses.>> Yes, they are (somewhat) unique and exclusive. But that probably isn't enough to convince Disney to build more of them. Now, if it could be shown that having monorails going to such-and-such resort would cause occupancy rates to skyrocket and that more people would be willing to stay there at higher rates (or Disney never having to discount), THEN you might have something.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Yes, they are (somewhat) unique and exclusive. But that probably isn't enough to convince Disney to build more of them. Now, if it could be shown that having monorails going to such-and-such resort would cause occupancy rates to skyrocket and that more people would be willing to stay there at higher rates (or Disney never having to discount), THEN you might have something.>> Exactly! The way I look at the monorail situation is that in terms of WDW its has more to do with priorities. Right now WDW priority is to maintain and improve their aging parks. Sure the MK has gotten a lot of TLC lately. And finally some attention is being devoted to EPCOT. However, SE needs some help, Wonders of Life sits empty for going on year two, the second floor of Imaginiation sits empty, the outside of Odessy looks awful, Mexico is slated for a rehab ( thank goodness ). Look at MGM. Half of that park is still empty. For right now Disney is filling the on property rooms by giving guests what they want, more park time. This seems to be working out well for everyone. To cut down on the transportation that Disney must provide. Disney is encouraging guests to just do one park a day. Oh don't get me wrong I love the monorails. Its just megga expensive to expand them and maintain them. Something Disney can do much cheaper with buses.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Actually, in the early days, the monorail was not a compromise system. Aside from the ferries, it could easily handle the transportation needs of WDW, as there wasn't much of a load to begin with... just two hotels and a theme park.<< To an extent, but remember for the most part the Golf Resort, Ft. Wilderness, and the Disney Village/Lake Buena Vista were always present within the original framework of the resort. So there was always a use of bus service at some level. Anybody remember the Green Flag bus? >>A total guess here, but when the Epcot loop was established, there probably weren't future plans to expand the resort as much as the company eventually did. The rocket growth didn't come until Eisner came along.<< Actually, there were future plans. Before Eisner decided to beef up the Marketplace there were plans for a line from EPCOT to what is now Downtown Disney. Help include the Lake Buena Vista on property hotels, which we much nicer back then. In today's terms, those hotels would have been priced and valued higher than the moderates. It really shows you what happened when Disney got into the game with full credit to Eisner. Who would stay at the LBV Palace over Port Orleans nowadays!
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> if it could be shown that having monorails going to such-and-such resort would cause occupancy rates to skyrocket and that more people would be willing to stay there at higher rates (or Disney never having to discount), THEN you might have something. << Exactly. This is what any new monorails would have to justify themselves with. They won't beat out buses if they're going to compete on "empty out the park" stats. But buses can't compete when it comes to attraction and novelty.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> the outside of Odyssey looks awful << Please explain. I don't understand what you mean by "awful." I see Epcot nearly every day, and while the Odyssey is not occupied every day, the outside of the structure remains quite nice (I thought) -- for a structure that's not used everyday.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<buses can't compete when it comes to attraction and novelty.>> IMO, this is pretty darn novel: <a href="http://www.tokyodisneyresort.co.jp/tdr/english/plan/transfer/resort_cruiser.html" target="_blank">http://www.tokyodisneyresort.c o.jp/tdr/english/plan/transfer/resort_cruiser.html</a>
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Thanks for the link to the Japanese Disney buses. I have seen them before. And with all due respect, while I appreciate the work that they put into them to make them unique and Disney, I still don't like them. They are boxy, squared off, and too over the top. The Japanese monorails strike me the same way. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure their engineering is much superior in both cases than ours. But the styles just don't "sing" for me. Are the Japanese buses diesel? Do they still smoke like ours?
Originally Posted By MPierce It looks kind of like an R.V. for Mickey san, and Minnie san. I kind of like it.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Oh don't get me wrong I love the monorails. Its just megga expensive to expand them and maintain them. Something Disney can do much cheaper with buses.>> Cheaper? Remember when Disney didn't always go for the cheapest solution to a problem?
Originally Posted By CMM1 KT wrote: "To cut down on the transportation that Disney must provide. Disney is encouraging guests to just do one park a day." I would assume that this comment was being made about the "Magic your Way" baseline ticket price of one park per day - isn't that policy really one that has little to do with transportation and everything to do with Disney attempting to get guests these days to "pay more for less" by limiting their ticket use to a single park rather than providing park-hopping priveleges as they used to do with any multi-day ticket? Back in the 90's, when you bought a multi-day WDW ticket it was a park-hopper - period. And un-used days on that ticket never expired - period. With the current long list of options, Disney essentially is providing: 1. Only single park access each day as a baseline - you pay extra for park hopping 2. Only limited data ranges for the tickets - you pay extra for an unlimited date range Would seem to me that the current "Magic your Way" really means something more like "Profits our Way". Rather than have their prices continually skyrocketing with the older method, the newer method offers far less in terms of value but does manage to allow Disney to keep the "sticker price" lower.
Originally Posted By CMM1 Regarding the monorail service to Epcot from the TTC and its connection to the Seven Seas Lagoon resorts - it seems to me that that is a major perk and reason why some guests are willing to shell out the $400+ a night for those resorts. You have to ask yourself who would be using that monorail service: 1. Resort guests from GF, CR or PR 2. Park hoppers going to and from MK and Epcot Any way you look at it, users of that service are paying extra beyond what any "outside" guest to WDW would be paying per day and thus that service makes perfect sense from a standpoint of providing incentive to stay at premium resorts and/or buy more expensive parkhopper tickets. In the end, would adding monorail service to other resorts make sense from that standpoint? Seems to me the only place that might really get a big economic benefit from such service would be Disney Vacation Club - Disney pitch could be "buy into Disney Vacation Club properties and get monorail service to xxxxx"
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Would seem to me that the current "Magic your Way" really means something more like "Profits our Way". << Absolutely! I also think there is no connection between the new ticket scheme and transportation strategy.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> I also think there is no connection between the new ticket scheme and transportation strategy. << I would agree with this observation. But I'm sorry that I do.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> "To cut down on the transportation that Disney must provide. Disney is encouraging guests to just do one park a day." << I disagree with this observation. I think the thinking is more likely "Disney wants guests to be satisfied with buses." "Hey -- It's free!" "That's magical, isn't it?" (<--- a joke)
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< They [the TDR busses] are boxy, squared off, and too over the top. The Japanese monorails strike me the same way. >>> But the Japanese monorail is rated at 10,000 passengers per hour, and is used every day by the vast majority of TDS guests to get to and from the park, including the crunch at park closing. I see what you're saying about them being a bit more boxy than the Mark VI's, but I'd gladly take that design if that's what's needed to make the monorail a true primary means of transport and not just an adjunct mode or novelty.
