Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF I'm sure they'll really miss that $5,500 terribly... <a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-22701-Sacramento-Statehouse-Examiner~y2010m6d11-Mormons-found-guilty-on-13-counts-of-political-malfeasance-says-FPPC" target="_blank">http://www.examiner.com/x-2270...ays-FPPC</a> >>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints became the first organized religion in California history to be fined for political malfeasance, according to the non-profit group, Californians Against Hate (CAH), which filed the complaint against the Mormons following the November, 2008 passage of California's anti-marriage equality proposition 8. Leaders of the Mormon Church "failed to timely report making late non-monetary contributions" to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign, an amount totaling $36,928, read the June 10, 2010 finding of California's Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC), announced today in Sacramento. The commission subsequently levied a 15% punitive fine against the LDS, totaling $5,539 dollars.<<
Originally Posted By Labuda Here's another part of the article that REALLY bothers me: "It was eventually learned that the Mormon Church coordinated contributions amounting to more than half of the $45 million dollar Yes on Prop 8 campaign, as well as contributing non-monetarily to the campaign by sending Mormon campaign volunteers through the Church's "mission" program and offering use of church ward (parish) property throughout the state. " So it's the fault of the idiots who determine where the cult sends its money that Prop 8 passed. Way to hold back progress, polygamists!
Originally Posted By Mr X Careful there, Labuda! I believe the politically correct term is "ex-polygamists". And no, I'm not surprised at all reading about this. Perhaps they should come up with better missions, the hate-filled ones leave such a nasty after-taste (if they actually drank carbonated beverages, perhaps they'd comprehend the taste they're leaving in everyone ELSE'S mouths...if not for this, I'd never had found my opinion of their group in the gutter in which I now consider them).
Originally Posted By Ursula Look at it this way. A precedence has been set. If you can fine them once, you can fine them again. Only next time, it can be bigger and better. The hatred of some people simply scares me sometimes.
Originally Posted By -em >>The hatred of some people simply scares me sometimes<< Agreed. and I'm from Utah. I am glad that although the fine is a mere drop in the bucket financially its the thought that counts...
Originally Posted By utahjosh It's not hatred. It really isn't an issue of hatred. I know it's easier for you to pretend that it's out of hate, but it's not.
Originally Posted By Labuda "I believe the politically correct term is "ex-polygamists". " Sorry, I was thinking about Big Love on HBO.
Originally Posted By utahjosh It's something you will disagree with completely. And I do not wish to get into a heated argument. I don't want to call names, I don't want to be called names. I won't stick around for that. For me, it's about supporting a man I believe to be a prophet of God - so the reason WHY I support Prop 8 is that he said I should. That's very scary to some people, but It's just a matter of faith to me. I won't apologize for it, I know why that seems odd or dangerous to some, but I am following my heart. Now, what you were really asking is my guess as to why my church supported Prop 8. My guess is that it's because of this document we consider the word of God: <a href="http://www.lds.org/Static%20Files/PDF/Manuals/TheFamily_AProclamationToTheWorld_35538_eng.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/Static%20Fi..._eng.pdf</a> I've heard every argument time and time again about why it's hateful and why I'm brainwashed and I just have no interest in hearing it. But you asked, so I answered. Probably not well enough for you, and you might disagree, but it's my answer.
Originally Posted By gadzuux As you know Josh - your beliefs are peculiar to most people. And most people do not share them. You ask for people to respect your faith and your views and your beliefs, yet you and your ilk cannot be bothered to extend the same courtesy to others. So why do you deserve better than what you give out? I don't care what you believe as long as it doesn't impact MY life. You don't care what I believe, but you and your people insist that I (and everyone else) conduct myself in accordance with your beliefs. Your church mobilizes - with money and muscle - to rescind protections of constitutionally guaranteed equality for people who live thousands of miles away from you in a completely different culture. This makes you a lousy excuse for an american - and you don't care. Your "faith" trumps your responsibilities to your nation and it's constitution. That's not name calling, that's reality. Mormons resent the pushback they've received because of their own actions. That's not name calling, that's accountability. And you don't like it. You're wrong. You deny it, but that's reality.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It's not hatred. It really isn't an issue of hatred. I know it's easier for you to pretend that it's out of hate, but it's not.<< Which is exactly what segregationists said in the 1950s. I have no doubt Josh believes it's not about hatred. But as time passes and the history of this event is written, it will look eerily similar to previous attempts to restrict the civil rights of a minority. And those that attempted to do so never, ever come out looking okay. >>My guess is that it's because of this document we consider the word of God<< Speaking of events that mirror previous events, the Proclamation on the Family is very similar to the Manifesto of 1890 in that it started out as essentially an uninspired political document that transformed into scripture canon for the faithful. And again, the LDS church shows its naivete on this issue. They continue to try and twist and portray this event as some kind of "political disagreement," as if we're discussing tax rates or international relations. So they try and pretend like they are above the fray after happily wallowing in it. "Gee, why all the animosity," they wonder. But people don't take kindly to being treated like second-class citizens by bigots. It doesn't matter how toothy their grins are, how warm their handshakes feel, how white-bred American they seem - the Mormons who supported Prop 8 are bigots.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I've heard it all before gaduux, and I'm not going to argue. I just wanted to reaffirm that my church's support of Prop 8 wasn't about hate. I'm not wrong about that.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I am glad that although the fine is a mere drop in the bucket financially its the thought that counts...<< Make no mistake, the amount doesn't matter much to the Church. This is an organization that runs much more like a corporation than a church. They are paralyzed with fear over public relations and I promise you they fought this tooth and nail. They pride themselves on being a perfect organization, so to be fined by the government for dishonesty is a big deal. I predict you'll see two responses to this: 1) The response that says this is only further evidence of the church's divine mission from God and that "the world" just doesn't understand and will continue to persecute the faithful. Indeed, a few months ago a Mormon leader stirred controversy when he compared the church to black civil rights activists in the 50s, apparently oblivious to the irony, claiming that they were the persecuted ones. Astounding, isn't it - the perpetrators become the victims. The second response, which you will see from some younger people in the church, will be the acceptance that the church did in fact error and should've kept their noses out of this. Younger Mormons are pretty divided over this whole Prop 8 thing. While they feel that the church has the right to marry who it wants, they don't all believe it has the right to interfere with other people's rights in other states. So for Josh to portray this as some kind of monolithic movement in the church who are just "following the prophet," isn't quite right. No doubt those members who do think the church is right will (and already are) demonize those members who think the church is wrong, they are out there, and they aren't all remaining silent. Fortunately.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And thus starts the name calling I won't stick around for.<< Are you referring to being labeled a bigot? Because you can dismiss it as mean-spirited name-calling all you like, but it's true. Maybe you're under the impression that we're all sitting around having a polite conversation. We're not; bigotry is bigotry, and it's incumbent upon do-gooders everywhere to call it what it is, Josh. I'm not about to have a polite conversation with a member of the KKK about whether blacks ought to be able to marry, nor will I do the same here. The outrage is justified, the vitriol you and your church have reaped is well-deserved.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <It's not hatred. It really isn't an issue of hatred. > I get that you believe that, but the undeniable practical effect is to deny equal rights under the law to millions of Americans in this non-theocracy that we live in. There - no name calling, just the simple truth of the practical consequences of your actions.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I just wanted to reaffirm that my church's support of Prop 8 wasn't about hate.<< Let's say that's true. Then what it comes down to is fear. Fear that a society that allows gay marriage will produce more and more gay people. There is a huge number of people in this country who just don't want to talk about homosexuality. It's something not to be discussed around the children (see the latest news on DADT for yet another example of this). And it's not discussed around the children because we don't want to be giving the children any ideas. If we never mention homosexuality, no child will ever have a same-sex attraction. I think that this is what many Prop 8 supporters believe. The thought of two men having sex grosses them out, and scares them. Scares them so much they 'll do anything they can to make it all just go away so we can stop talking about it and then the gayness will just go away finally.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I did take offense to being labeled a bigot, because it implied hatred. big·ot : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance In this case, the description fits except with the word hatred. So I'll take the rest. I am completely devoted to my belief here, and I am intolerant of encouraging gay marriage.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Fear that a society that allows gay marriage will produce more and more gay people.> This was a leap from what I said. This is not a reason I supported Prop 8.
