Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Conservatives get a pretty good thumping around these parts. So for a change, here's a little bit of nuttiness from the left. Whoopi Goldberg sounds as if she's not 100% convinced the moon landing really happened. Is she really serious, or just trying to stir up the pot a bit? Hard to tell. <a href="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/07/20/whoopi_goldberg_entertains_moon_landing_conspiracy_theories.html" target="_blank">http://www.realclearpolitics.c...ies.html</a> And while visiting the WTC Ground Zero site a couple of weeks ago, perhaps half a dozen very loud, aggressive folks were there pitching their pamphlets explaining how 9/11 was all an inside job. It was revolting. Whoopi's predecessor on The View, Rosie, fully buys into that nonsense.
Originally Posted By ecdc Yeah, the 9/11 conspiracy guys seem to be extreme left-wingers to me too. They're paranoid about government power and turning into 1984. I'm not sure about Whoopi. She always seemed a bit off. I saw Mos Def on Bill Maher once and that guy is nuts. He believes 9/11 is an inside job and that OJ is innocent. That combination of crazy's gotta be in short supply. My favorite though was a ranting conspiracy theorist on Penn & Teller. He said that every election after Kennedy was killed, corporate leaders take the new President into a room, show him the "real" footage of the Kennedy assassination that was photographed from inside the Presidential limousine (when the Secret Service shot Kennedy at point-blank range), then ask him, "Do you have any questions?" The President then responds, "What is your agenda?" Idiot. I can't imagine going through life thinking such crazy nonsense.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Were they "lihop" or "mihop"?<< Hmmm... I had to look those terms up. I think they were mihop (thoe who think the gov't "made it happen on purpose"). But to be honest, I was trying to tune them out walking past. They were obnoxious.
Originally Posted By Mr X Well, as far as that goes I think the mihop's are morons, BUT I leave room for the possibility that it was willfully ignored for whatever political purposes (in this case, to launch "justified" wars against the Middle East). I'm not saying I think so, I'm just leaving room for the possibility. I don't suppose we'll ever know, but the more I learn about Pearl Harbor the weirder that situation becomes...I just can't say with 100% certainty that it DIDN'T go down that way. The moon thing is just so much silly nonsense though. No way all those that worked on the space program would collectively keep quiet about a coverup that makes a joke out of their life's work. As for the Secret Service thing...bah. So Johnson (or Carter or whoever) waits for a nice opportunity like a speech before the joint session of Congress and a nationwide audience, and in the middle of the speech exclaims "I order the immediate arrest of all secret service personnel by ANY state and local law enforcement NOW".
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I'm just leaving room for the possibility.<< It just is not at all possible. I mean, if there was going to be that elaborate setup to justify attacking Iraq, conspirators would have made SURE that the hijackers could be traced directly to Baghdad -- they were not. And likewise, they would have planted chemical weapons in Iraq to be "discovered" to justify the war. Those are fairly simple things to do compared to multiple hijacked jets hitting multiple US targets. And while I disagree with a lot of the politics of the Bush administration, I don't for a minute believe they wished harm on the country, let alone would have had either the appetite or the ability to pull off or even "allow" the attacks of 9/11. No way.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>>I'm just leaving room for the possibility.<< It just is not at all possible.*** You're entitled to that belief. ***Those are fairly simple things to do compared to multiple hijacked jets hitting multiple US targets.*** I'm not suggesting they knew when, where, or on what scale. It is a known fact, however, that the White House had a report entitled "Osama bin Ladin determined to attack within the United States", and didn't do much about it. And, again, I'm only allowing for the possibility (I think it's remote, but possible).
Originally Posted By Mr X Day of Deceit <a href="http://www.pearlharbor41.com" target="_blank">http://www.pearlharbor41.com</a> "After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle. The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels---on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence." The McCollum Memo <a href="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.whatreallyhappened....dex.html</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X I hardly believe that stuff either, in fact I'm pretty sure it's bunk (garbled communications, lack of solid leads, misunderstandings...sound familiar?) BUT, as with the other, I do leave room for the possibility.
Originally Posted By DAR Another one my favorites was the CIA putting crack/cocaine in the inner cities.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Another one my favorites was the CIA putting crack/cocaine in the inner cities.*** I read one where the CIA had to decide between LSD or television as a means to placate and zombify the population forever...they went with TV cause it was more effective. Well, off to watch my shows! <--walks away drooling
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy X - I think the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists cherry pick documents that support their view while neglecting all of the other circumstances surrounding the event. You can always say that Pearl Harbor was expected because military planners are paid to analyze all potential threats from an adversary. There was a lot of analysis going on at the time about threats from Japan. There are memos out there analyzing the threat of Japan to the mainland U.S. and many other possible outcomes. Not all of these threats were realized. I've studied WWII and Pearl Harbor quite a bit. To say it was unexpected is probably equivocal to saying that it wasn't expecte for the levees to fail in a hurricane event the size of Katrina. However, that doesn't mean that the event was deliberately planned in a malicious way. The whole of the evidence doesn't support that theory. The conspiracy guys like to amplify circumstantial pieces of evidence while ignoring all the rest.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***However, that doesn't mean that the event was deliberately planned in a malicious way.*** Yes, I realize that. I guess my point is more along the lines of, how much did they really prioritize things (in both cases..WWII and 9/11), and were there mitigating factors that might have (perhaps not in a malicious way) driven them to overlook things because either way, something else was going to go down after that was important. I'm not sure if I phrased that correctly, but that's the way I look at this stuff when all the pieces don't fit together so well (noone can argue that stuff like this DID go down at certain points in history, it HAS precedent and it's really impossible to look at all of this through the lens of "black and white", "good and evil", "right and wrong" imho).
Originally Posted By Mr X Having said that, I appreciate and respect all that you have to say there in post 12.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 My favorite conspiracy theorists are the ones who say that the government knows all about the presence of UFOs and aliens visiting our world, but are keeping it secret from us. If the government wanted to control us and have us crying to them for help and protection, it would make more sense that the government would come right out and announce that there were aliens among us. I can think of no better way for a government to take over completely than to produce a real or imagined enemy so we are willing to give that government total control. That's what the Bush administration did with Iraq, and what Obama is doing now with the economy. Keeping things secret just fuels speculation and distrust. Better to announce things like alien visitors, then exploit the hell out of our fears to gain greater control over the populace.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <It is a known fact, however, that the White House had a report entitled "Osama bin Ladin determined to attack within the United States", and didn't do much about it. And, again, I'm only allowing for the possibility (I think it's remote, but possible).> Well, I GUESS it's possible, in the way that myriad things are possible... But I'm reminded of the old expression "Never attribute to malice what can best be explained by incompetence." As for your Ground Zero kooks, 2oony, I'm just happy they're confining themselves to that small area now; for a short time they were more widespread, accosting average passersby often with their nonsense. I saw a few argue with them, but most New Yorkers did the thing they hate most: ignored them. I hope you did the same.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>most New Yorkers did the thing they hate most: ignored them. I hope you did the same.<< We did. Fortunately, they didn't show up until our 4th or 5th day in town. We passed by Ground Zero just about every day from the PATH station, so I'm glad it wasn't our first image of the site. There did seem to be a couple people here and there debating them a bit, but for the most part a lot of folks walking past gritting their teeth. I really felt bad for the police officers in the area having to listen to that junk all day.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney I have to say I never really been a conspiracy theory nut. Sure, I understand people get suspicious of what government does and things, but the explanations of how and why usually sound utterly stupid and usually with only a scant amount of evidence as well. One of the oddest conspiracies I use to ALWAYS hear and that is still a known 'fact' in my old neighborhood is that the government invented AIDS to kill black people. To this day, many people still believe it. I never understood how A. you have a disease that affects EVERYONE is somehow discriminating against one group of people and B. why the same government would invent such a disease but yet makes it so controlled that the only way you can get it is through bodily transfusion? AIDS is deadly obviously, but not that simple to get if you're just a tiny bit educated on it like most western countries are now, but I still know people who think somehow this disease was made to target them alone. But yeah, the JFK conspiracies, 9/11, the moon landing and everything else, it all usually sounds too ridiculous to take seriously. Because of the internet age, people have gotten more creative and there is a bombardment of 'evidence' over this stuff now, but usually its sooo one sided and leaves out all the stuff to the contrary. I cant even look or hear about the 9/11 stuff without rolling my eyes. Sadly that conspiracy is a worldwide belief. I use to teach in university in Korea and most of my kids believed it. But what can you do? BUT, I must admit, the one conspiracy I definitely believed growing up was the most outlandish one lol, which John S1 (wow, how you been man, looong time ) brought up and the UFO/Roswell connection! I was ALWAYS a UFO nut and I guess you have to blame The X Files lol, but for about 10 years I had no doubt UFO's were real and Roswell really happened. I read SO many books on the subject and was a huge Roswell freak, I was hooked. I think I read every major UFO book at there. One of my dreams when I was a teenager was to go to Roswell lol. I also wanted to go to Nevada and watch the 'UFO's' land in Area 51 with the other UFO nuts. I still catch myself watching videos about it on Youtube when I'm bored . But yeah, now that I'm a little older, I dont believe it AS much, 90% of it is silly and been debunked long ago. But I still say to this day even if we dont have little grey aliens frozen in military bases, to this day, the government STILL refuses to reveal all its UFO reports, whether real or not, to the general public. Stuff like that only fuel suspision. And reports from people like seasoned air force pilots to Jimmy Carter have reported seeing things they cant explain themselves. There is even an ad in the military that airs on AFN (American Forces Network) that if anyone sees a UFO they should report it immediately. The one I use to watch in Korea was cheesy as hell lol, with air force men with their bad acting looking at horrible dodgy-looking UFO CGI, but obviously the army takes these sightings seriously even today. Again, it may NOT be little grey men, but when you get away from the abduction kooks and people with just too much time on their hands and listen to the worldwide reports and mysteries over it from very credible people, I understand why its one of those subject matters that wont go away. To this day, you still got people who were still around from the Roswell incident 50 years ago that still have not changed their stories. Not a single one has ever said they lied or it was a hoax, even on their death beds, people from the military on down to their kids. Whatever really happened, its a really interesting story when you research it and how the events played out.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <There did seem to be a couple people here and there debating them a bit, but for the most part a lot of folks walking past gritting their teeth.> That's nothing. I guess I should have mentioned the other thing New Yorkers do if not ignore them is offer up the one-finger salute.
