Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney Spent yesterday in the MK with a friend in for a convention, who had one day free and opted -- against my protestations -- for original WDW park instead of Epcot or DAK. Because she had only one day, we did something that I, as a local, never do. We went commando. Got there in the morning, ran from attraction to attraction, did the FP deal, everything. I admit, though, something that shouldn't be surprising but was happened. By the middle of the afternoon, we had done everything. Every E-Ticket (some twice thanks to FP), every minor attraction that she wanted to experience, even Cindy's Carousel. This despite large, but by no means, unmanagable crowds. It got so bad that by 5 p.m. we were at the Poly waiting to get into the Kona Cafe before returning to the MK for SpectroTragic and Wishes and ice cream (and another ride on Buzz, Pooh, Mansion, TTA and the Railroad). That's kind of when it hit me. All the capacity the MK has lost over the years. All the empty real estate. All the space. Obviously, FP makes the MK feel more crowded than it is. And, no thanks, I won't wade into the FP thread that seems to have exploded in the past few days. But I couldn't help, but think the reason why the MK felt so crowded wasn't the tail end of the last week of the two month spring break. It wasn't the great weather that made locals, like yours truly, play hookey from work. It was the lack of capacity. No more Riverboat, albeit that will be back after what seems like a year rehab. No other watercraft. Keelboats and canoes are long gone. Swan Boats are ancient history. Oh, so are the subs. But that Poo Playground sure can run thousands of guests thru in an hour ;-) Suppose I could go off on a tangent about how important kinetics and movement are to a Disney park's vibe, but that's a discussion for another day. Besides, getting there in the morning allowed me to see the Main Street vehicles (or at least the horsedrawn streetcar) does indeed run for at least 2-3 hours a day. My friend wanted to see the Diamond Horseshoe Review. I had to explain that's been gone for years. The place is now a character-greeting location. We all have talked endlessly about Timekeeper, which was a people-eater, but what about the Skyway? It moved a lot of people that now are on the walkways. And dining? The Adventureland Veranda sits empty. That is/was the second-largest dining location at the MK. The Pirate and the Parrot appeared to be open, unusually so, but that's likely temporary. And when it goes back to its usual desolate state, oldtimers like me can remember when its huge seating area used to be unique shops. I won't go into the sad state of merchandise at the MK, but have you noticed how many shops have closed? A good quarter of Main Street is now facades with black film covering the windows. And what really caught my attention was how, to get back on my topic of capacity and making the MK appear a lot more crowded than it is, was how many merchandise kiosks now clog the walkways, like at the outlet malls nearby, while the shops are closed off. They make it seem even more crowded. Adventureland, which once had at least half a dozen shops, now has two. The quaint, quiet Plaza where you exited Pirates is now like being at Pirates-themed flea market. The shop, whose name escapes me, is gone and closed off and used for storage, but just try and exit PotC without bumping into a shelf of merchandise. I guess I just haven't been to the MK like a tourist during the holidays in a very long time, so all the changes for the worse didn't hit me like a cold-shower until I was visiting with my friend. I would venture to say that a day with 35,000 people in the MK can now feel like a day with 50,000-60,000 because so much capacity has simply disappeared and because FP wastes queues and tosses people out on the walkways. And, yes, I did have a good day before anyone asks. Although I like my way of dropping by for a few hours a whole lot more. BTW, the MK does look quite clean in the mornings, although the walkways are not pressure-cleaned every night. But by noontime, you could already see custodial was having trouble keeping up. By mid-afternoon, certain areas, Tomorrowland especially looked like they needed help. And Main Street was a disaster in the evening. Just some perceptions. Take them for what they're worth.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Very even handed post LUV. I appeciate your time and energy in telling us about our beloved MK. I could almost feel the excitement although >>>>>>>>>well you know how we differ? I am not a gadfly (someone who is critical) as I am the opposite. I am critical of criticism which I feel is unjustifiable. If you get a chanc read my post under thread It's a Good Day Today because. I just don't think I can make it to the groundbreaking of the Paramount On Lake Eola LUV so (no pressure) if you happen to be driving by or in the next month or so, maybe drop me a personal e to keep me apprised of the progress. I am sorry about the trailer comment. We're both passionate people and that is what makes us love WDW
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Great observations Luv. They have closed many "people-eaters" and those folks have no other place to go but the midways. Well said.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Great post Luv. Very interesting perspective. Now here are mine... >>We went commando.<< I too go to the MK without underwear. Just shorts. More comfy to walk around all day >>My friend wanted to see the Diamond Horseshoe Review.<< Take her to TDL where the show still plays in the afternoons. >> I did have a good day before anyone asks.<< Just don't tell Disney that, or they will continue on believing they are doing a great job with the current management of their parks. >>BTW, the MK does look quite clean in the mornings, although the walkways are not pressure-cleaned every night. But by noontime, you could already see custodial was having trouble keeping up. By mid-afternoon, certain areas, Tomorrowland especially looked like they needed help. And Main Street was a disaster in the evening.<< And here I thought thinking that was only MY OWN tragic nightmare. You need to go to TDL my friend and compare. >>SpectroTragic<< Hey! Get your own jokes!! >>I would venture to say that a day with 35,000 people in the MK can now feel like a day with 50,000-60,000 because so much capacity has simply disappeared and because FP wastes queues and tosses people out on the walkways.<< Not to mention.. tossing guests out of their rightful first come, first serve turn in line!!! But no matter what management claims the numbers are for attendance at the MK, I am yet to see crowds like the ones I experienced last month at TDL, and keep in mind.. they have NOT cut back capacity like the ways you described in your fair minded report. Amazingly so, even on their worst days at TDL... they still have not had to deviate guests backstage behind World Bazaar, bypassing garbage disposal equipment, in order to move the crowd out of the parks, such as the case with the MK on several ocasions.
Originally Posted By kmovies Yes, some big "people eaters" closed but were they really "eating" too many people when they closed???? Subs, probably. But that was a different story.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<I would venture to say that a day with 35,000 people in the MK can now feel like a day with 50,000-60,000 because so much capacity has simply disappeared and because FP wastes queues and tosses people out on the walkways.>> I would say it feels more crowded because in 30+ years the average American seems to have doubled in size.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss ^^and some of those folks that have doubled in size need to learn that they no longer fit into their old clothes.
Originally Posted By tonyanton Thanks for the post Luv...I agree with pretty much all of your observations. The MK has slipped to third for me for favourite WDW parks (behind Epcot and DAK). It used to be first. As bad as things seemed to be getting in the late '90s, the relatively recent loss of the Diamond Horseshoe and the inability to even utilize the full space for shops on Main Street and Adventureland is just saddening. BTW, the now storage space former shop at the exit to "Pirates..." was called "House of Treasure," I believe.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << No other watercraft. Keelboats and canoes are long gone. Swan Boats are ancient history. >> The Swan Boats? Didn't those disappear in 1972? I'd hardly add those to the list of missed attractions! Otherwise, you are pretty much right in your assessment of where the MK stands right now. It's a shame that one of the most expansive Magic Kingdoms, with the most room to grow, hasn't really taken advantage of that luxury. To be perfectly fair, though, I don't think you can list all the things that have been taken away going back to 1972 (Swan Boats) without noting the things that have been added. The list is small -- Splash Mountain, Toontown Fair, Aladdin's Carpets are the main ones that come to mind. There does seem to be less to do these days in the MK than in days of yore. I miss the Skyway and 20,000 Leagues (I miss the lagoon more than the ride itself). I also think you have to consider some of the attractions that have been replaced over the years and their impact to the "capacity" issue. "If You Had Wings" and Dreamflight were always a walk-on -- Buzz seems to have finally found a way to attract crowds to that location. Mission to Mars was probably not as well attended as AE/Stitch -- although I understand Stitch isn't quite the crowd pleaser. Philharmagic certainly draws more people in than the shows that rotated through that building over the years. One other thing that I have noticed as a repeat visitor over the years -- I tend to skip things that used to be on the attraction list from years past. Anymore, I don't do the Treehouse, Hall of Presidents, Grand Prix Raceway, Snow White, and several other attractions that just don't do a whole lot for me. However, back when the MK was a little less familiar, we used to try and see pretty much everything. I guess I have reduced the capacity of the MK in a way as well -- by reducing the list of minor attractions that I seek out on the occasional visit. I wonder if the first time MK visitor feels the same way about the "capacity" issues as the repeat visitors?
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << The quaint, quiet Plaza where you exited Pirates is now like being at Pirates-themed flea market. >> My recollection of this area over the past 20+ years doesn't seem to ever remember that plaza being devoid of merchandise. I always remember exiting the attraction into the bazaar-like shopping are.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<It's a shame that one of the most expansive Magic Kingdoms, with the most room to grow, hasn't really taken advantage of that luxury.>> It could be said that Disney chose to grow in a different way, by adding the other parks.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney Thanks for the comments. I realized when I went back to work how I forgot another factor of diminished capacity -- empty show venues. I mentioned DH, but the Galaxy Palace Theater doesn't stage regular productions at all anymore. That place seats a few thousand. The old Mickey's Starland Theater was turned into a meet-and-greet years ago. The Fantasy Faire Stage in Fantasyland is now just a seating area. Just seems to me that a park that was built to correct the size issues that DL has now through removal of attractions, entertainment, shops, resturants and the creation of FastPass, is now prone to feeling uncomfortably crowded, even on days when the actual headcount shouldn't make it feel so.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney >>We went commando.<< "I too go to the MK without underwear. Just shorts. More comfy to walk around all day " Ever hear of TOO MUCH INFO! >>My friend wanted to see the Diamond Horseshoe Review.<< "Take her to TDL where the show still plays in the afternoons." Really? Is that the same show we used to have here? >> I did have a good day before anyone asks.<< "Just don't tell Disney that, or they will continue on believing they are doing a great job with the current management of their parks." That's the problem. I think they're doing a terrible job, especially at the MK. But the fact that even an oldtimer lik myself can go at one of the busiest time and come out with a grin on my face makes them believe they don't have to keep their standards up, let alone return to the old level. It's really like a dog chasing its tail. >>BTW, the MK does look quite clean in the mornings, although the walkways are not pressure-cleaned every night. But by noontime, you could already see custodial was having trouble keeping up. By mid-afternoon, certain areas, Tomorrowland especially looked like they needed help. And Main Street was a disaster in the evening.<< "And here I thought thinking that was only MY OWN tragic nightmare. You need to go to TDL my friend and compare." I'd LUV to sometime. I'm more likely to spend time in DCA ... or even DSP before seeing Japan. >>SpectroTragic<< "Hey! Get your own jokes!!" I have been calling it that since at least 1993! Did you copyright it? ;-) >>I would venture to say that a day with 35,000 people in the MK can now feel like a day with 50,000-60,000 because so much capacity has simply disappeared and because FP wastes queues and tosses people out on the walkways.<< "Not to mention.. tossing guests out of their rightful first come, first serve turn in line!!! But no matter what management claims the numbers are for attendance at the MK, I am yet to see crowds like the ones I experienced last month at TDL, and keep in mind.. they have NOT cut back capacity like the ways you described in your fair minded report. Amazingly so, even on their worst days at TDL... they still have not had to deviate guests backstage behind World Bazaar, bypassing garbage disposal equipment, in order to move the crowd out of the parks, such as the case with the MK on several ocasions." That's really the heart of my point. I don't believe the MK was all that busy yesterday. Moderately, yes. But crazy/holiday-type crowds? No way. And yet, it felt body-to-body sometimes. I'm convinced its a combo of lowered capacity in attractions, merchandise and food locations, mixed in with kiosks, ODV carts and all kinds of things clogging walkways, and adding FP makes it a toxic mess. And I just don't buy the MK getting higher attendance than TDL. I think it's corporate spin on behalf of Team Disney. I know too many people who do work at Disney and not one of them believes the MK outdraws TDL annually.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "I would say it feels more crowded because in 30+ years the average American seems to have doubled in size." "^^and some of those folks that have doubled in size need to learn that they no longer fit into their old clothes." I wasn't going to go there, trekerruss, but you certainly see a whole lot more full-figured guests these days. You also have the double-wide strollers and many more wheelchairs and ECVs that you didn't have before. Those do add to the congestion.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "BTW, the now storage space former shop at the exit to "Pirates..." was called "House of Treasure," I believe." Thanks. I think you're right. I also seem to recall a shop called Golden Galleon ... does that ring a bell? Maybe that was the old Adventureland crystal shop?
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "The Swan Boats? Didn't those disappear in 1972? I'd hardly add those to the list of missed attractions!" No. They became seasonal. But I know I rode them in 1985 or 86. That may have been about the time they left for good. "Otherwise, you are pretty much right in your assessment of where the MK stands right now. It's a shame that one of the most expansive Magic Kingdoms, with the most room to grow, hasn't really taken advantage of that luxury." Yeah. What did Walt say about 'having the luxury of space?' He was referring to the entire resort, but still ... the MK shouldn't feel packed on days that it is far from it. "To be perfectly fair, though, I don't think you can list all the things that have been taken away going back to 1972 (Swan Boats) without noting the things that have been added. The list is small -- Splash Mountain, Toontown Fair, Aladdin's Carpets are the main ones that come to mind. There does seem to be less to do these days in the MK than in days of yore." I wasn't going back to any specific time. More of in general deal. When Splash Mountain opened, everything I listed -- except the Swan Boats -- were all around. So that was what? 1991? Let'ts go back to that date. "I miss the Skyway and 20,000 Leagues (I miss the lagoon more than the ride itself)." Me too. On both thoughts. "I also think you have to consider some of the attractions that have been replaced over the years and their impact to the "capacity" issue. "If You Had Wings" and Dreamflight were always a walk-on -- Buzz seems to have finally found a way to attract crowds to that location." I remember waiting to ride If You Had Wings. Not long. Maybe 10-15 minutes. But it did have waits. I also wonder if Buzz would ever have longer than 20-30 minute waits if you pulled FP off it. Omnimovers eat people. "Mission to Mars was probably not as well attended as AE/Stitch -- although I understand Stitch isn't quite the crowd pleaser. Philharmagic certainly draws more people in than the shows that rotated through that building over the years." I would say AE drew the biggest consistent crowds to that building, but in general, none of the attractions were huge draws. Do agree about PhilharMagic though. "One other thing that I have noticed as a repeat visitor over the years -- I tend to skip things that used to be on the attraction list from years past. Anymore, I don't do the Treehouse, Hall of Presidents, Grand Prix Raceway, Snow White, and several other attractions that just don't do a whole lot for me. However, back when the MK was a little less familiar, we used to try and see pretty much everything. I guess I have reduced the capacity of the MK in a way as well -- by reducing the list of minor attractions that I seek out on the occasional visit. I wonder if the first time MK visitor feels the same way about the "capacity" issues as the repeat visitors? " Interesting point. I actually did ALL of the attractions you mentioned this week except for the Indy raceway, which I only ride when I have children in tow. "My recollection of this area over the past 20+ years doesn't seem to ever remember that plaza being devoid of merchandise. I always remember exiting the attraction into the bazaar-like shopping are." There was always some. But it was nothing like what it's become. There were fountains with real running water. Trees and planters. It was peaceful. The main merchandise location was the shop at the exit. They even had a location where you could dress in pirate attire and take family portraits. It's right near where the restrooms are behind bland brown plywood.
Originally Posted By tonyanton Luv...Golden Galleon and a full-size La Princesa de Cristal were located in what became expanded seating for the now often-closed El Pirata y El Perico restaurant (ironic, huh?). "Laffite's Portrait Deck" was the photo location you mentioned.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Man-At New Year's I did not notice that! My son't favorite gift shop (one of his favorite's) is the one exiting POTC. Is that really gone? How could it be gone when everyone must have spent a fortune there like we did? It makes no sense fiscally? Any reason LUV?
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "Luv...Golden Galleon and a full-size La Princesa de Cristal were located in what became expanded seating for the now often-closed El Pirata y El Perico restaurant (ironic, huh?). "Laffite's Portrait Deck" was the photo location you mentioned. " Yes. That all rings a bell now. Thanks for filling in the blanks. But it is kind of weird and sad to think of all the guests that have come to the MK in the past few years and have no idea that a third of Adventureland no longer exists except as storage areas, offices or private function rooms. I need to pull out a MK guidebook pre-early 90s and see just how many facilities have disappeared. I'm sure there are plenty I can no longer recall.
Originally Posted By tonyanton I have a feeling it was a cost-saving measure to just take the merchandise from "House of Treasure" and move it into the Plaza, thereby eliminating the need for more cast members and maintenance on an additional shop. What a shame...it had a very different feel than the Plaza space.
