Originally Posted By skinnerbox <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/10/merry-hyatt-tea-party-pat_n_387408.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...408.html</a> <a href="http://www.newamerica.net/blog/blockbuster-democracy/2009/should-people-mandate-christmas-music-14441" target="_blank">http://www.newamerica.net/blog...ic-14441</a> "The Tea Party movement is supposed to be all about keeping the government out of your business. But if some California members get their way, the state will force public schoolchildren to sing Christmas carols. It's called the "Freedom to Present Christmas Music in Public School Classrooms or Assemblies" initiative. "Bottom line is Christmas is about Christmas," said Erin Ryan, president of the Redding Tea Party Patriots. "That's why we have it. It's not about winter solstice or Kwanzaa. It's like, 'Wow you guys, it's called Christmas for a reason.' "" So... will the Jewish schoolchildren get equal time with Hanukkah songs? Or will they be subjected to the Christmas songs along with the atheists?
Originally Posted By alexbook No, they won't. Everyone, Jews, Hindus, and Atheists included, would be required to sing Christmas carols under this legislation. It's so clearly unconstitutional that there ought to be some sort of sanctions. In fact, how about this for an initiative: If you propose an initiative, and it passes, and it's then ruled unconstitutional, you have to reimburse the state's costs. The thing I'm wondering is who decides which carols will be sung and played. How do Evangelicals feel about "Ave Maria"? Is "Jingle Bells" acceptable, or is it too secular? Anybody for a chorus of "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch"?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Anybody for a chorus of "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch"?> I LOVE That song. It's delicious.
Originally Posted By mawnck >> Everyone, Jews, Hindus, and Atheists included, would be required to sing Christmas carols under this legislation.<< Nope. Having just read the **actual bill being proposed**, it looks like Huffington Post blew it somewhat out of proportion. Yes, it requires that schools provide "opportunities" to listen to and/or perform Christmas music. But wait ... here are a few quotes: >>"Christmas music" includes, but is not necessarily limited to, carols, songs, and instrumental works whose subject matter relates to the celebration of the Christmas holiday or to the season during which that holiday is observed.<< >>The appreciation or performance of the Christmas music may be incorporated into the subject matter of an arts or social studies class, presented for cultural enrichment during a school assembly, or both.<< >>Each public elementary and secondary school shall provide the parent or guardian of a pupil with written notice of the presentation or performance of Christmas music in a classroom or assembly at least 21 calendar days before that pupil would be required to be present for the presentation or performance of the Christmas music. The written notice provided to the parent or guardian shall include a tear - off slip or other method for the parent or guardian to inform the school if he or she chooses that the pupil not be present for the presentation or performance of the Christmas music.<< That first one up there dodges the Church and State issue by defining Christmas music broadly (IE it's not just "carols"). The schools wouldn't have to have any references to Jesus in their Christmas music to comply with the law. I'm opposed to there being *any* sort of music mandated by law to be part of a school curriculum. Besides, many school systems in California have shut down their music departments already, so who's going to run this thing? And who's going to pay for the Christmas music, Mrs. Tea Party? >>I LOVE That song. It's delicious.<< I've always personally gotten a kick out of the Coventry Carol, which is a lullaby telling the kid that King Herod's soldiers are coming to kill him any second now. Now that's the true spirit of Christmas!
Originally Posted By alexbook Okay, now I'm confused. Does this bill actually mandate that schools do anything? If it's simply giving schools permission to perform Christmas music, then it's not doing anything, isn't it? Can't they already play Christmas music if they want to?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>(a) Each public elementary and secondary school shall provide opportunities to its pupils for listening to or performing Christmas music at an appropriate time of year.<< So yeah, it does mandate Christmas music of some kind or other. California schools are allowed to have Christmas music now IF it's for academic purposes.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It almost seems so rife with caveats and legaleze as to be nearly meaningless. Perhaps it's a way for this Tea Party guy to say "I'm standing up for Christmas!!" (perhaps for his own political gain now or in the future?) while still covering his butt legally/constitutionally and assuming the far right nuts he's pandering to won't bother to read it anyway.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Perhaps it's a way for this Tea Party guy to say "I'm standing up for Christmas!!"<< Tea Party **gal**. I was kind of surprised when I read it that she had put enough thought into it to make something that might actually have a snowball's chance of getting passed and upheld, rather than a loony screed in the form of legislation.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>assuming the far right nuts he's pandering to won't bother to read it anyway.<< A safe assumption, since most of them don't actually know how to read.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I don't think that any religious music should be required, but I also don't think that we need to have a permission slip for it. Especially in music classes, there wasn't much around until quite recently that wasn't religious. Try getting through a high school band, orchestra, or choir program without encountering religious music, and you'll be hard pressed to do it. That said, there is a lot of music from other religions as well that often don't get the same representation, because people don't know about them, or it's a different style of music that is difficult to perform with western instruments. I guess there has to be a line drawn at some point, but I think I would rather leave that up to the individual schools to find what works best for them. I realize that this legislation is specifically for elementary schools, but it's such a part of a bigger picture that it would be kind of silly to ban it. I still think the permission slips are a little overboard...
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones In all my life of attending public schools I never once thought, "You know what would make this great? Christmas carols!"
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka I pretty much always think Christmas carols will make things better but that's just me, melekalikimaka. ;-) Our daughter's class is having a "Winter Celebration" concert next week. They're doing songs from around the world. None are religious but holiday themed. We've got quite a good mix of religions and different ethnicities at her school. I think it's pretty cool how many different people she's met. The school has never been anal about holidays. As a parent, I've helped make Xmas cards and cookies with her classes. Only one child, Muhammad, rarely participates. No one has made a big issue about the way things are defined. Kids may choose not to participate in certain activities but it's not very common. Rarely are there "winter" holiday concerts, usually the concerts are in the Spring. I would be uncomfortable if the kids were singing only Christian-oriented music because we have such a mix in our school. If they included other religions along with it, then it wouldn't bother me at all. I still think it's better left out of public schools, however.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Another reason I suppose I'm glad I have no kids. Who gives a rat's $#@! if they sing carols or not? As a society anymore we now overanalyze far too much.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 ""Bottom line is Christmas is about Christmas," said Erin Ryan, president of the Redding Tea Party Patriots. "That's why we have it. It's not about winter solstice or Kwanzaa. It's like, 'Wow you guys, it's called Christmas for a reason.' "" See, this quote bothers me. It's like nobody bothers to know about the holiday's they are celebrating. They are SO ignorant about it. Stupid woman...I'm sorry, but she's stupid.
Originally Posted By fkurucz << How do Evangelicals feel about "Ave Maria"? >> Since the lyrics are lifted straight out of the NT, I don't see how they could object. ;-)
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Actually, growing up in the Evangelical environment, I never ever heard "Ave Maria" sung in any Evangelical church I went to, or Christmas function. I know it was strongly associated with the Catholic Church, which was why it was pretty much ignored. Not to be dismissive, but there was always disdain for anything associated with Catholics. However, my grandmother who was Catholic said "Ave Maria" was one of her favorite songs.
Originally Posted By DAR Yeah Ava Maria is mostly heard during a Catholic service. As the for the signing of carols, if the schools wants to have the kids sing them let em. Throw in a few Kwanza, Dwali, Hannaukah and whatever else songs you can think of. Or if they don't want to, then they don't want't. Either way there's worse things kids could be doing.
