Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/110137/McCain-Now-Winning-Majority-Independents.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.gallup.com/poll/110...nts.aspx</a> >>John McCain's 6 percentage-point bounce in voter support spanning the Republican National Convention is largely explained by political independents shifting to him in fairly big numbers, from 40% pre-convention to 52% post-convention in Gallup Poll Daily tracking.<< Lots of details at the link...
Originally Posted By Elderp One thing I can say as an Independent is that McCain has been facing the issues. The problem is I don't really agree with his solutions to the issues, but at least I know where he stands. The Dems response to this bounce has been apalling. Basically, at this point the Dems are saying we should vote for Obama because he is black and he is mostly pro-choice. I have heard lots of Democratic analysts state how they "think" Obama is on the issues, but the truth is I haven't heard it from Obamas mouth. I have heard lots of great speaches on change, ok change is good, now give me specifics.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The specifics are there on his website, ElderP, if you're really interested in knowing them.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The specifics are there on his website, ElderP, if you're really interested in knowing them.<< And thus the Dems lose the election. Website? Har.
Originally Posted By Elderp No it isn't first of all you click on the issues link and then you have to download the "blueprint for change" then you start reading the thing and it just says stuff like "Obama's insurance plan will provide coverage for everyone." Ok, how will it provide coverage for everyone? How will we provide for the costs? What kind of paperwork is involved? It said "Obama supports a reduction of troops." Great! When are the troops leaving? Now, a month from now, when I am long gone and dead? You see what I mean. I know McCain's health plan. Basically, he wants to privatize it and then give us a $9,000 tax credit. I don't like it (my health care costs $12,000 a year), but at least I know some of the specifics. I know McCain also supports a reduction of troops, but he has told us it is not going to happen until Iraq has established a Democratic government (ok, so it is not going to be in my lifetime). Ok, so as an Independent, I know I am probably going to be messed up with either canidate but it's easier to flinch when you know what is coming.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>The specifics are there on his website, ElderP, if you're really interested in knowing them.<< <And thus the Dems lose the election. Website? Har.> I agree that Obama should talk more specifics. He did do some of that in his acceptance speech, actually. He should do more. But the idea that has offered no specifics just isn't true. The info is out there if you want to find it. And Elderp, I agree that the info on the health plan is sketchy, and no surprise you chose that as an example, but there are other specifics in there.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>but the truth is I haven't heard it from Obamas mouth. I have heard lots of great speaches on change, ok change is good, now give me specifics.<< Oh my hell. How many times does the man have to talk about specifics before this myth finally goes away? How anyone who watched his acceptance speech can then say there's no specifics it's beyond me. And if you didn't want his acceptance speech, then it still doesn't mean Obama's not talking specifics. It means Americans aren't listening, and at this point, I can't help but wonder if it's deliberate on their part.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "but the truth is I haven't heard it from Obamas mouth. I have heard lots of great speaches on change, ok change is good, now give me specifics." Did you not watch his acceptance speech then? He was even more specific than McCain was during his. "Oh my hell. How many times does the man have to talk about specifics before this myth finally goes away? How anyone who watched his acceptance speech can then say there's no specifics it's beyond me. And if you didn't want his acceptance speech, then it still doesn't mean Obama's not talking specifics. It means Americans aren't listening, and at this point, I can't help but wonder if it's deliberate on their part." I think this is the case. People have repeated it so often now, that even with the plans laid out, it's still not enough information, because they've just never bothered to pay attention. It's just convenient to say "I don't know specifics" rather than actually find out...
Originally Posted By Elderp "How anyone who watched his acceptance speech can then say there's no specifics it's beyond me." Ok, here is the transcript show me the details: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/28/us/politics/28text-obama.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08...ama.html</a> I see elimination of the capital gains tax. Ok, where are you going to get the money to recover the lost revenue? I see $150 billion for renewable resources. Ok, where is is this $150 going, how are you going to pay for it? I see reduction of troops in Iraq. Ok, when? How? What is the goal we are looking for? I see creation of jobs. Ok, what jobs? What sectors are we going to target? How are we going to target them. ( I have to interject here that McCain says the same thing and doesn't really have a plan either). Other than the above mentioned issues the majority of the speech was slams on the Republican party and they old line of "we want change." Yes, I want change but I want real change, specific change. Not some vague drownout promises.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Other than the above mentioned issues the majority of the speech was slams on the Republican party and they old line of "we want change." Yes, I want change but I want real change, specific change. Not some vague drownout promises.<< This is as specific as campaign's *ever* get. McCain has offered absolutely nothing more substantive. Yet the criticisms always are directed at Obama.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<This is as specific as campaign's *ever* get.>> I was just going to say the same thing - when has a campaign EVER given more specifics than what both sides are currently offering. Do we really expect them to produce a 1,000 page document detailing everything they plan to do the minute they take office? The thing would be outdated the minute it was published - to much changes on a daily basis to ever get policy completely set in stone.
Originally Posted By Elderp Ok, if that is that is ok with you so be it, but it isn't for me. Like I said I feel McCain has been specific. He has put out the dollar amounts, he put out the time tables. I don't like his plan, but it is a real plan. Yes, you can't enumerate every detail, but you can provide at least a decent outline. It doesn't have to be a 1,000 page document it just has to be a clear road map. The flowery language is cute, but it is not substantive, besides if it takes the American readers too long to read they probably are not going to read it anyhow. I have however read it and Obama, in my opinion, hasn't stepped up to this stage in the game. I hope he does.
Originally Posted By oc_dean So lets get this straight .... independents think glossy presentations (the convention) is the sole way to lean in the direction of McCain? Am I getting this right? How shallow.
Originally Posted By Elderp Independents are looking for details... "Oh no!!! Their starting to ask questions, what will we do???" "I know lets call them ignorant, stupid, and shallow. Our guy graduated Magna Cum Laude how dare they ask him questions!" Yea, attack the potential voters, good strategy.... Whatever.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Ok, if that is that is ok with you so be it, but it isn't for me.>> I should point out that I really don't think it's OK that they only give this level of detail, but I really don't expect much else from the candidates at this stage. It's really all rhetoric at this point -- how many candidates actually keep their campaign promises after the election ends? I wish it could be different, but I just don't see that happening. For me, at this point, it's more about their general philosophy on topics, their past records, and credentials. Though I'd be lying if I said that I ever seriously considered McCain - after the past eight years, the Republican party brings far to much baggage to the table for me to ever vote for McCain. And once McCain brought Palin in, it just sealed the deal for me. I want this country to continue moving forward, socially, environmentally, and economically - and I firmly believe that voting McCain/Palin in would be a step backwards on all those issues.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Yea, attack the potential voters, good strategy.... Whatever.<< Elderp ... if a potential voter votes purely on image .. and never looks at their policies and take a strong look at their credentials .... Do you see the possible damage by not voting for the right reasons? It's dangerous. And most specifically dangerous to our country.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>It means Americans aren't listening, and at this point, I can't help but wonder if it's deliberate on their part.<< Yep. Need ta shout louder. Get their attention. The days of a rational, intelligent America are over. Deal with it.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Like I said I feel McCain has been specific. He has put out the dollar amounts, he put out the time tables. I don't like his plan, but it is a real plan. >> This makes no sense whatsoever. You don't like his plan, but you will vote for it anyway? That's ridiculous! Then what? You complain that you got exactly the plan you didn't like? What I don't like about McCain's details is that they are exactly the same failed policies from the current administration (and failed administrations past). It's actually scary to read his speeches on the economy and then compare them to speeches by Herbert Hoover at the onset of the Depression -- they are eerily the same.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm tired of reading that those who like conservative policies are irrational, stupid, etc. Name calling is below you guys. We can have a difference of opinion. You think conservative policies are flawed. We think liberal policies are flawed. We don't need to say "America is stupid" when they choose conservative policies.
