Originally Posted By RC Collins I don't have time to read through the entire threat on the girl who died because her parents excluded medical attention for her and focused on prayer. So forgive me if this has been said already... The idea that positive thoughts or prayer should be relied on *instead* of medical science is not unique to "Christian" churches. But as for "Christian" churches, this idea, while popular with televangelists, is NOT taught in the Bible. In fact, the Bible is favorable towards medical care. There's a very thorough book written by a self-proclaimed Bible-believer, Hank Hanegraaff, called _Christianity in Crisis_. This is a man who takes the Bible literally. It demonstrates the errors (at least as far as the Bible is concerned), of the "Word of Faith" movement. One of those errors is that you don't need medical care if you have enough "faith" and pray or "positively confess" enough. It is a horrible lie and people needlessly suffer and die early as a result. It is the perfect "crime", blaming the victim for not having enough "faith". I'm not a Roman Catholic, nor am I a Mormon, but I'm fairly certain both of those churches also encourage seeking medical treatment and they both claim the Bible as Scripture. So Bible-believing Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Mormons agree on that... with all of the things they disagree about, they agree on that. I *do* believe that healing HAS been provided for by God, but also that most people will not obtain that healing until the "end". I also believe in miracles, but do not believe God will supernaturally heal most people in this day an age if they just pray enough. God can do whatever He wants, but I think He has demonstrated we should use the gifts He has given scientists as far as preserving life and healing illness and injury. As for the JWs and blood transfusions... I think authors like Ron Rhodes have done an excellent job demonstrating that the Bible does NOT prohibit blood transfusions. Praying to God is good. But God is not a cosmic bellhop. Sometimes, God answers your prayer with "No."
Originally Posted By Ursula And sometimes God answers your prayers with a well educated doctor from Harvard who operates on your brain tumor and makes it all better. We just don't know, do we?
Originally Posted By utahjosh Having God part of the equation gives hope and comfort. We still need to work hard, study hard, depend on doctors, and do everything we can on our own to fix problems.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Sometimes, God answers your prayer with "No."<< That's not at all convenient, is it. Anything that looks like evidence for God obviously is. Anything that makes it look otherwise is still really God, he's just saying no or "testing" us. The lack of evidence is the evidence when it comes to this. Hey, I've got no beef with people praying to whatever God they believe in for peace and comfort. But forsake medical care for your daughter to choose prayer? That's not faith, that's idiocy. Then again though, it doesn't speak too well for god if people can only put their faith in minor issues that don't really have major consequences. Nobody prays to god for income to rain from heaven to pay for their house; they go out and get a job (and then blame god for helping them find one). Of course, we're told god doesn't operate that way. Again, it seems mighty convenient.
Originally Posted By pecos bill I do understand the hope and comfort thing, and I think it is solely responsible for many "answered" prayers.
Originally Posted By woody It is always good to look at the big picture rather than narrowly focus on Christians. There are many beliefs where standard Western medical care is passed over. There's the Scientologists who don't believe in psychology. There's the naturalists who believe in holistic medicines and believe normal foods are toxins. I'll take it a step further in saying the irrational adversion to genetic engineering of our foods (despite the genetic studies on curing human diseases via stem and embryonic cells) is avoided although there are advantages from less chemical treatment of pests. I will say prayer or a holistic approach shouldn't substitute for medicine. Those that do it are wrong.
Originally Posted By johnno52 When I was diagnosed with lung cancer many relatives and friends called me and said they would pray for me at their church. I thanked them knowing that it would make "them" feel better. As an atheist what was the "test" that God had for me? He'll spare me if I believed? I had many relatives and close friends that had succumbed to this disease who I felt were a better person than me, and were devoted Christians. Many of these people died some in severe pain due to lack of a health care plan (in the US sorry to say). Should seeing a relative die in excruciating pain makes one look for God's reason for it? What kind of a person would inflict this agony on a person for weeks? We've read about this and it was a huge discussion on another thread. I'm sorry but I cannot accept that the world has a God or several Gods when so much cruelty, pain and suffering is going on. How much of this has to go one before he intervenes and says "thats enough"!
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<I'm not a Roman Catholic, nor am I a Mormon, but I'm fairly certain both of those churches also encourage seeking medical treatment and they both claim the Bible as Scripture.>> Given the large number of Catholic hospitals in this country and the world, that is a safe assumption.
Originally Posted By woody >>I'm sorry but I cannot accept that the world has a God or several Gods when so much cruelty, pain and suffering is going on. How much of this has to go one before he intervenes and says "thats enough"!<< Without God, what do you have left? That's what I'm curious about. Usually, belief in God gives hope. What is life without hope?
Originally Posted By dshyates "Without God, what do you have left? That's what I'm curious about. Usually, belief in God gives hope. What is life without hope?" As an agnostic, this is the attitude I don't get. Seriously. With God you got what? What do you got that I ain't? A book? And what does God have to do with hope?
Originally Posted By woody dshyates: I am trying to get your point of view. What do you get without God? Or do you get hope from a nontheist belief. As for your question, I don't want to into a theological debate right now.
Originally Posted By RC Collins Hey, I just wanted to come on here and point out that devout Bible-believers in the traditional sense believe in seeking medical assistance in addition to prayer. These people who refuse to seek medical help for their children are following teachings that are not based on the Bible taken as a whole. That was the whole point of my original post. I should have expected it to veer off into another debate about atheism vs. theism, and that it will ultimately turn into fights over homosexuality, evolution, and bad things done by churchgoers. >>I'm sorry but I cannot accept that the world has a God or several Gods when so much cruelty, pain and suffering is going on. How much of this has to go one before he intervenes and says "thats enough"! << The thing is, without an objective standard of right and wrong, citing these as things that are "wrong" with life amounts to nothing more than saying "I don’t like these things". I believe there is evil in the world. But how do we know evil is evil? If there is an objective right and wrong, good and evil, wholeness and corruption, etc., where does that come from? I believe that comes from God. Human suffering and pain are the result of sin - sins we commit against each other, and sins we inflict on ourselves. As a Christian, I believe the "fix" is in, and that things won't always be this way. Someday, evil will be removed from the world.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "If there is an objective right and wrong, good and evil, wholeness and corruption, etc., where does that come from? I believe that comes from God." And people that don't believe would argue that these views of right and wrong evolved over the course of human history. Humanity has had many views of what is right and wrong throughout our long history. And who's to say what's in vogue now will be in 1000 years time.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Some people don't give mankind any credit for their kindness and wisdom. It is beyond many that goodness cannot be made by them without guidance from a heavenly idol. The 10 commandments are the most simplest rules of conduct. Yes! Moses said God gave him these rules. But wasn't he up there long enough to knock them out himself? Just because HE said it was the word of God, should we all believe him like so many have? Was he losing control of the tribes and needed to get back order? Many books have been written and rewritten in history by man. Do we really know or can we say yes we can back up that fact? If the Germans had won the 2nd world war and denied the holocaust for a millenium wouldn't our ancestors have a false knowledge of history based on the faith of the Nazi party? We believe what we have been told because of the word "faith". Isn't faith another word for blind trust? Do you believe everything thats said to you without question? Did you ever think that the bible could be mere fiction based on some facts? Tell your child something and he/she will ask why! However by the time you become an adult you stop asking questions and you believe whatever is told to you from a book.
Originally Posted By DlandDug There are many people who prefer to just accept whatever they're told. They can be believers or non-believers. There are many people who choose to rely on their own sense of what is right and wrong. There are many, many people (indeed, most people) who believe that a higher power has determined what is right and wrong, and attempt to live their lives in that manner. For people of faith, it is not irrational or lazy to rely on that higher power. Incidently, I believe that faith is not a matter of believing something that cannot be true. It is accepting that which cannot be understood otherwise.
Originally Posted By RC Collins >>And people that don't believe would argue that these views of right and wrong evolved over the course of human history. Humanity has had many views of what is right and wrong throughout our long history. And who's to say what's in vogue now will be in 1000 years time.<< Yes, societal standards change, but I argue that there is an objective right and wrong that exists independent of popular opinion. johnno52 had written: >>I'm sorry but I cannot accept that the world has a God or several Gods when so much cruelty, pain and suffering is going on. How much of this has to go one before he intervenes and says "thats enough"!<< ...and I want to know why what he considers to be "cruelty, pain, and suffering" are bad? Who says they are bad? >>Some people don't give mankind any credit for their kindness and wisdom. It is beyond many that goodness cannot be made by them without guidance from a heavenly idol.<< Who determines what is good? >>Just because HE said it was the word of God, should we all believe him like so many have?<< No. That's one reason there were miracles to let the people know that it wasn't just Moses' idea to do all of that stuff. These days, we have other things to consider. I believe Jesus when He confirmed that Moses indeed received divine revelation. >>If the Germans had won the 2nd world war and denied the holocaust for a millenium wouldn't our ancestors have a false knowledge of history based on the faith of the Nazi party?<< I gather you are making a "winner writes history" argument here. But no government in the last 2000 years had has control over all information. >>We believe what we have been told because of the word "faith". Isn't faith another word for blind trust?<< Not in the Bible I read. I'm called to have faith BECAUSE of the evidence, not without reason. >>Do you believe everything thats said to you without question?<< No. That's why I'm a Christian and not a n Atheist, Scientologist, Reformed Jew, New Ager, Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness. People from each of those camps have directly told me things. >>Did you ever think that the bible could be mere fiction based on some facts?<< Yes, I have. There have been times I have wished for that to be so. But I have reasons to believe that the Bible is not fiction. It may contain some fictional parables, but I do believe that it accurately describes the human condition and who Jesus Christ is, what He has done, and how to follow Him.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >.and I want to know why what he considers to be "cruelty, pain, and suffering" are bad? Who says they are bad?< Lets try a few; Burning witches at the stake! 100,000 Gassing and burning in ovens; 5,000,000 Bringing Christ to the Americas: lets say 500,000 I assume you think these Christian deeds came without pain and suffering? >But no government in the last 2000 years had has control over all information.< But they did the first 1000. Only the clergy for a long time had the right and knowledge to read and write. Even the nobility were denied. Tell me what "Evidence" of the bible is corroborated with factual findings and not just "God's Word" >No. That's why I'm a Christian and not a n Atheist, Scientologist, Reformed Jew, New Ager, Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness. People from each of those camps have directly told me things.< Another "Sales pitch" no doubt! >But I have reasons to believe that the Bible is not fiction.< Good for you! you are not alone and amongst Millions of believers. As I am amongst Billions that don't believe in Jesus as God's son or God himself. Religion to me is another way of exercising control over the masses with fear or should I say "Love". Whatever word you want to use, you are still conforming to the their norm. The best example is with todays Islamic world were inflicting death to non believers is an everyday faith. This was also everyday practice just 500 years ago with the Christians. But as you say what would I know about cruelty, pain and suffering and who am I to judge?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Having God part of the equation gives hope and comfort.*** You don't need some god in order to feel hope or comfort.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Right when going for my surgery, my surgeon gave me all the hope and comfort I needed.
