Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Here is the link: <a href="http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5guC0NokkvfoH2o4M7k89_fw9By_QD91GAR4G1" target="_blank">http://ap.google.com/article/A...91GAR4G1</a> While I generally feel it is okay for religions to lobby for what they believe in, I have a real problem with this one. The LDS Church has historically been quite leary about sticking their necks out for any political issue. So why are they fighting so hard against gay marriage? And why aren't they fighting as hard against abortion, capital punishment, torture of prisoners, poverty in America, racism, starvation in the third world or global warming???
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And why aren't they fighting as hard against abortion, capital punishment, torture of prisoners, poverty in America, racism, starvation in the third world or global warming???<< Because in today's church, "morality" is narrowly defined as sexuality. I'm really struggling with this latest effort. For the first time I'm considering having my name removed from the rolls. I hate the thought that they're using me to bolster their fake numbers of membership, given that roughly 50% or more of the 13 million plus members aren't active. This is bigotry, plain and simple. Like I said on another thread, I cannot believe that they would be so foolish as to be on the wrong side of a civil rights issue *again*. But I guess when you can blame racism or bigotry on God instead of taking personal responsibility, it's easy to keep making the same mistakes over and over. And if people think that the Mormon church opposing gay marriage isn't a big deal, go read up on the LDS church and the ERA. Historians have discovered that, despite it's small size, the church was a huge factor in sinking the Equal Rights Amendment with their supra-organized efforts.
Originally Posted By Elderp This letter was NOT read in our sacrament meeting today so I spoke to my Bishop today about it. He said that he hadn't received any such letter, but had he received such he would of followed it. I know sometimes we get announcements late but the article states the letter was dated the 20th and was supposed to be read today. I have other family members who are LDS here in CA, I am going to find out if they got such a letter read to them. Did any other LDS members out there get this letter read to them today?
Originally Posted By Elderp "Because in today's church, "morality" is narrowly defined as sexuality." Morality is a lot more than just your sexuality. In fact today was the fifth Sunday of the month (we have special lessons on the fifth Sundays) and in todays lesson which was ironically on morality the video we watched said "Morality is much more than one's sexuality." It went on to tell us that one's morality is an individual gift given to us by God. Since it is a gift we have the freedom to use it anyway we want (although we don't have freedom from the consequences). Being a moral person these days is to be free from the evil influences that constantly attack and bombard our daily lives. Morality is about being a person of good character: honest, chaste (and this is more than just being a "virgin"), clean, trustworthy, etc. Unfortunately Satan makes a lot of noise about sex and the church is required to address it, but to be a truly moral person is much more than not being promiscuous.
Originally Posted By mele Great. It's hard to feel badly for the bigotry LDS faces when they actively participate in bigotry towards others.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "Unfortunately Satan makes a lot of noise about sex and the church is required to address it, but to be a truly moral person is much more than not being promiscuous." Satan makes a lot of noise about sex?? Sex is how we all came to be. Sex is the instinct that gives life. Why religion chooses to demonize sex all the time is beyond me. There are much greater evils to combat than sex don't you think?
Originally Posted By X-san ***Why religion chooses to demonize sex all the time is beyond me.*** Because it's something everybody does, or at least thinks about, and it's an easy topic to make people feel guilty about so they feel the need to go back to church for "help" in fighting off their natural urges. Without "the sex card", I firmly believe religions would be much less popular and far smaller today. ***There are much greater evils to combat than sex don't you think?*** Yes. I'm interested in hearing the reply from the LDS people on the question posed in post 1. I think it's a very good question that deserves an answer (deserves an answer from as far up as possible, so I'd hope the people reading this will ask their leaders right on up to the Mormon "prophets", because I'd like to hear their answer as well).
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 Hey, wait a second here! Are posters on this thread criticising the LDS Church for its activities?! No, No, NO! That just won't do. If you think the Mormon Church's use of its resources to attempt to deny civil rights to gay people is a clear-cut example of a religious institution engaging in bigotry, you need to learn the lessons that I learned from other LP posters in the "Religion belief is delusional." thread: 1) The Church does a LOT of good things. So it's really not fair to come down too hard on it when it does something you might not agree with. Just take the high road and bite your tongue, okay? 2) Many Mormons disagree with their Church's position on this and other issues. So, really, it's not fair to criticise the Church when so many of its followers are not supportive of its positions. If you criticise the Church, you'll just be making things uncomfortable for many of its members. Show a little courtesy to them, okay? 3) If you find yourself objecting to the Church's active promotion of hatred, that's a clear sign that you truly, deeply know that you AGREE with it. You need to look harder within yourself, okay? C'mon. I know that this SEEMS like an obvious case of a religious institution engaging in hatred. But you really need to fuzz things up until that seems less clear to you. After all, it is totally disrespectful to criticise a religion or the people who believe in it; it is rude, hurtful, and socially unacceptable to state or imply that any religious beliefs or actions are "wrong." Ask yourself: Who are YOU to criticise a long-entrenched institution? There you go. Somehow now it doesn't seem like such a bad thing that the Church is spending its tithes to ensure that gay people be legally relegated to second-class status, does it? Good. We don't question religion. Just be happy.
Originally Posted By DAR I'm putting the over/under on the number of posts this topic generates as 300 meaning that it will either generate more or less than that number. My pick is over. As for the issue at hand, can't say I'm surprised. It's shameful but not surprising.
Originally Posted By fkurucz In a vain attempt to get this tread back on track: I agree that it is interesting that the LDS are taking a public stance on this, because as others have pointed out they seem to prefer to fly under the radar when it comes to other issues. As an outsider I can only speculate as to why this merits special attention from their hierachy, but I will take a shot nontheless. In the LDS faith marriage plays an even bigger theological role than it does in classical Christianity. LDS believe that they marry for all eternity, and (LDS members correct me if I am wrong) to enter the highest level of heaven one needs to be sealed in a Temple marriage. So in a sense for the LDS marriage is perhaps the greatest sacrament (I use this word in the classical, not LDS, definition). So to redefine it would be perhaps blasphemous, an affront to the order that God created not only for the natutral world, be for the spiritual realm as well. So, LDS'ers, was I close?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 One of our LDS members can comment on if your interpretation is correct. But let's say for the sake of argument that it is. It's fine to believe that as an article of your own faith. It's not fine to essentially insist that those of other faiths, or no faith, believe it too, or to say that the civil law must adhere to it.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I'm putting the over/under on the number of posts this topic generates as 300 meaning that it will either generate more or less than that number. My pick is over. >>> Do you think Godwin's Law will come true? 300 is getting up there!
Originally Posted By utahjosh We are an organization standing up for what we believe is best for society, and encouraging others to stand up for it, too. Go ahead and join your own organization that represents your beliefs. May "We The People" decide what we want as a society.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>May "We The People" decide what we want as a society.<< No Josh, we the people don't always get to decide that. By your logic then, the South should have remained segregated. >>We are an organization standing up for what we believe is best for society, and encouraging others to stand up for it, too.<< Mormonism is an organization that's been on the wrong side of civil rights issues before. Now you watch leaders stutter and stammer (and disingenuously) say that "we don't know" why God denied blacks equal rights. This is ignorant at best, dishonest at worst, since we know *exactly* where the ban came from. This is exactly the same. Mark my words, some day some Mormon leader will have to stand up and claim they don't know why Mormons denied gays equal rights.
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Originally Posted By barboy ///No Josh, we the people don't always get to decide that. By your logic then, the South should have remained segregated./// I have mixed feelings about this 'absolute democracy' business whereby all members of a population have one, equal valued vote. And the movement which receives the mode of votes becomes policy. It looks pretty fair to me but then some, obviously, get the shaft--- there's just no way around it. The logical side of me is pure 'democrat'(not in the political party meaning here) and if the will of the people(demos) want racial segregation then so be it. But the emotional side will cry foul every time.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Madison, in the Federalist Papers, had interesting things to say about the "tyranny of the majority" and how any new Constitution should guard against it.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Not when its unconstitutional. >>> That's the odd thing about the California constitution. It can be amended by a simple majority vote of the people through the initiative process. As such, it may be effective at constraining what the legislature can do, but it's not at all effective at protecting minority interests from the "tyranny of the majority" that might get passed directly by the voters. So, if the voters passed an initiative in California that amended the state constitution to ban gay marriage, then that by definition could not be unconstitutional (at least per the state constitution).
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Mark my words, some day some Mormon leader will have to stand up and claim they don't know why Mormons denied gays equal rights.> I disagree. I've said why many times before on these boards. It's a very different issue at it's core.
