Originally Posted By skinnerbox Further proof that the millions poured into passing Prop 8 would have been better spent elsewhere (like housing and feeding the poor): <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/02/29/434407/poll-finds-unprecedented-25-point-gap-between-supporters-and-opponents-of-marriage-equality/" target="_blank">http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/...quality/</a> <> Poll Finds Unprecedented 25-Point Gap Between Supporters And Opponents Of Marriage Equality By Igor Volsky on Feb 29, 2012 at 9:00 am A 25-point gap now separates supporters and opponents of marriage equality in California, with 59 percent of residents backing same-sex marriage and just 34 percent opposing it, a new Field survey finds. This represents “the largest margin of support for the issue in the three-plus decades the Field Poll has been asking the question” and shows a big increase for marriage since voters approved Proposition 8 in 2008. Significantly, support increased among all groups, including Protestants, Catholics, African Americans, Latinos and older Americans and pollsters say that opponents of marriage would have a difficult time overcoming the trend should the measure go back to the ballot: Poll Director Mark DiCamillo said the move to a 25-point gap goes beyond the gradual increase in support that has been expected as young voters age and “replace” older voters in the electorate. “This is now showing that opinions are changing irrespective of generational replacement,” DiCamillo said. “This is real change.” [...] DiCamillo said voters still hold the judiciary in relatively high regard, and years of gay marriage court battles in California are likely contributing to the opinion shift. “The winds of change are blowing in other states (and) when judges start ruling the same way, I believe that has an influence,” he said. Proposition 8 was found unconstitutional by a federal judge in San Francisco, “and his ruling was upheld by a panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals earlier this month. But the appeals court is weighing a request from gay marriage opponents for a larger panel of judges to review the decision, and ultimately, the matter could be headed for the U.S. Supreme Court, with a decision years away.” Political scientists have suggested that conservative efforts to outlaw marriage equality may have actually contributed to its growing popularity by increasing the visibility of LGBT issues and making “a topic that seemed taboo a little bit less taboo.” “One of the fascinating things is that with all this discussion out there whether positive or negative, being able to say the words, just made people more comfortable,” Professor Brian Powell of Indiana University told ThinkProgress in 2010. <> In November 2008, Prop 8 passed with a narrow margin, 52.24% to 47.76%. This current poll shows that 59% of registered voters in CA now approve of marriage equality, an 11% increase in a little more than three years. Instead of waiting for the Ninth Circuit to make their decision regarding a new review en banc, which will ultimately lead to SCOTUS in any case... why not just put this back on the ballot in November? If 59 percent of registered voters are now in favor of marriage equality, then put it up to a vote. Beat the homophobic theocrats at their own game. Personally, I believe it's immoral for the majority to grant or strip civil rights for any minority, including marriage equality. But if this is the main argument that the pro-Prop 8 folks have been making, about "the will of the people" deciding this issue, then put it back on the ballot. Then it won't matter what SCOTUS decides, down the road.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I hear you. Basic rights shouldn't really be subject to popular vote, of course, but given how CA operates and the particulars of this situation, I'm thinking "bring it on." Put it on the ballot and legalize equality that way. Then we don't have to worry about the Prop 8 case making it to the current SCOTUS and possibly setting us back. We'd also then have marriage equality having been decided in various states by courts (MA, IA), legislatures (NY, WA), and direct vote (CA). And since one in nine Americans lives in CA, if CA votes in equality and it holds, the days are truly numbered for inequality. It means many more married gay couples moving elsewhere and suddenly "not being married" any more... which is an untenable situation that will eventually have to lead to a Loving v Virgina-type decision. I don't think the current SCOTUS would do it, but in 10-20 years they might. I really didn't think it would happen this fast. I thought it might take 40 years from the MA decision, but now it might be more like 20. Maybe even less, as public opinion continues to move all in one direction... and faster than I'd have believed not that long ago.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Question for CA residents: is there a movement you know of to put the question on the ballot in 2012? COULD there be, especially in the wake of this poll?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Dabob, EQCA was asking this very question not too long ago, before the Ninth Circuit decision was made. I don't know if they're actively pursuing the ballot initiative again, but in light of this recent poll, perhaps now they will.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I read recently that supporters of the gay marriage ban were working on a new ballot initiative in the hopes they could make it legally bullet proof. Also, no more of the yes means no stuff. In light of recent events I wonder if they'll re-think.
Originally Posted By Labuda I just wonder how far down the line it'll be when it's legal here in Texas. My guess is we'll likely be one of the latter half of the states to make it legal for ANY adult to marry the adult they love. Anyhow, even my raised-by-racist-bigots boyfriend is pro-gay marriage, so that gives me hope. Of course, he's also educated, which I think helps. Smart people tend to be more open-minded when it comes to civil rights.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I read recently that supporters of the gay marriage ban were working on a new ballot initiative in the hopes they could make it legally bullet proof. >>> Well, bullet-proof against constitutional challenges perhaps, but certainly not against another ballot initiative that expressly undoes the ban.
Originally Posted By SuperDry ^^^ That's the double-edged sword of the California state constitution: any ballot initiative can amend the state constitution with a simple majority of the popular vote.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Question for CA residents: is there a movement you know of to put the question on the ballot in 2012? COULD there be, especially in the wake of this poll?<< I almost hope not. Mainly because I really don't like the idea that civil rights should be up for a vote. That said, of course I'd vote YES if it did appear on the ballot.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I almost hope not. Mainly because I really don't like the idea that civil rights should be up for a vote. >>> To add to what I said before, this is one of the big problems with the California state constitution. Since a simple majority vote on an initiative on any state-wide general election can amend the state constitution, each and every civil right that is protected by that constitution can disappear based on a single day's reading of the public's temperature on the issue. The California state constitution provides reasonable protections against momentary passions of elected officials, but not that of the electorate.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones I voted for marriage equality (partially because I don't care about marriage or the institution) and will vote for it again, but don't get your hopes up. We often see polls that California is going to do this or that, like legalize gay marriage or marijuana, based on polls and popular opinion. Then when election day comes around, the ballot measures don't go the way we expected. I think people spend a lot of time on the Internet and believe everybody is as liberal as people on the Internet are, but there are millions and millions of people in the state and the country that hold the opposite viewpoint.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Considering how close the vote was 4 years ago even after all the millions poured into the pro-8 side (and lack of a proportional campaign for anti-8 till it was too late), AND the rather rapid movement towards equality in the last 4 years, I think CA would stand a very good chance of doing the right thing. Not a certainty, of course. And basic rights shouldn't be up to a vote to begin with.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "And basic rights shouldn't be up to a vote to begin with." I wonder how approval of a private, personal, intimate and sexual relationship is a government function anyway. In any case, yes, these social issues are up for the states to decide.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "Should interracial marriage have been up to a popular vote?" A state can vote on it but any result that attempts to regulate it is probably unconstitutional. Something like Prop 8 is probably unconstitutional too and it will be decided in the future. But sure, a state can vote on these issues. Just hold an election. All you need are the signatures to get it on the ballot in a state with direct democracy. Of course, there's no religious basis that marriage be between a white and a white or a black and a black. There is, however, a religious belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. So you're going to run up against religious doctrine. This is what is driving those opposed to gay marriage. They believe it's counter to their faith. I have no use or respect for religion so I will vote in the name of marriage equality, but it would be far better if you left the government out of marriage altogether.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "A state can vote on it but any result that attempts to regulate it is probably unconstitutional. Something like Prop 8 is probably unconstitutional too and it will be decided in the future. " Bingo. "Of course, there's no religious basis that marriage be between a white and a white or a black and a black. " I don't know how old you are, but boy are you wrong on that one. I'm old enough to remember the arguments against interracial marriage-- it's "unnatural," or "God placed the races on different points on the globe for a reason..." etc. In other words, people used their religion to justify their bigotry. Sound familiar? "but it would be far better if you left the government out of marriage altogether." That's a separate argument, but as long as it's involved for some citizens, it needs to equalize it for all citizens.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >> I'm old enough to remember the arguments against interracial marriage<< Me, too. They are almost identical to the ones against gay marriage, including "What about the children? They'll be confused and psychologically damaged."
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones But if you look at what the bible actually states, there is an opposition to gay marriage that is not there with interracial marriage.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox The Old Testament is for our Jewish friends. The New Testament is where Christianity resides. Any Christian using the Old Testament to justify their bigotry needs to shut the F up.
