Originally Posted By Mr X For those folks who consider themselves atheist or agnostic... What would cause you to admit that your lack of faith was incorrect? Here are a few examples I thought about, along with a few I found while searching around, which would make me possibly convert on the spot, OR seriously re-examine my lack of belief in a particular religion... 1) Aliens from another world visit Earth who subscribe to the same religion as exists already here. 2) Through new advances in medicine, doctors are able to revive an un-tampered with group of corpses which have been deceased for a matter of weeks (I'd say longer but that gets gross, not to mention less possible to be un-tampered with), such formerly dead people having never been informed of the idea or purpose of the experiment...and yet all or most of them return to life and testify to the fact that there is, in fact, life after death. 3) A prophecy, written explicitly in a religious text, indicating that a particular event will occur in the future...and the event occurs. This one is tricky, cause it has to be *real* and not Nostradamus style hypothetical stuff. In other words, if it was written in the bible that "On March the first, 2009, a great earthquake will occur and plunge Los Angeles into the sea", and it happens...I'm in. I'd repent, etc., and sign up to that religion. 4) A genuine miracle is performed, under scientific conditions where it is verified and repeated and signed off on by a large number of experts. If some guy can actually change water into wine (oil might be more useful these days lol), and prove it, I'm in. 5) Some impossible to be known fact is proffered in a religious text. For example, if Jesus had said "and I say unto you that E=MC2", something that could NOT have been known or even conceived of in those ancient times (or, for that matter, something in a religious text of modern times that later becomes proven), I'd switch. Would any of these events cause you to convert to a faith? Re-examine your skepticism? Or would you reject such events wholeheartedly as fraudulent, impossible, or just some sort of trickery? Are there any other examples you could offer that would cause you to change your viewpoint on god and the afterlife? If so, please throw that in here (I'd love to hear some better examples). If not, would you say that absolutely NOTHING in the way of events or proof could possibly cause you to reconsider your anti-religious viewpoints?
Originally Posted By teddibubbles lol I see no posts in this topic. people sometimes don't want to believe in anything.. because they don't want to change their life stile. or admit ANYTHING / ANYONE is more in control than their self!
Originally Posted By Ursula I pick number 4. I would really have to SEE this miracle myself, darn the experts. And it would have to be something that wasn't slight of hand. Example: let ME walk on water. I'd love to also see number 5. Number 1 doesn't do it for me. The aliens could be just like us, so it wouldn't matter to me if aliens say they also believe. I mean, look at Jerry Falwell. And I think I'd have to die and see the afterlife before I'd believe anyone else who says they did, unless it was someone I knew who has the same viewpoints as me. I guess God forgot to give me faith, or I was standing behind the dorr when he handed it out.
Originally Posted By ecdc If I had a personal experience, I could certainly be convinced. I don't need it to be a powerful vision of God, either. If one of my children was ill, or even died, and I found an inexplicable peace from believing in an afterlife or the comfort of God, I could see "converting." I wouldn't consider this "knowing" that there's a god, but rather, I'd consider this a positive value in believing that trumps the value of unbelief. That said, I think it'd be mighty tough for me to accept one kind of faith over another. Such an experience would not convince me that one dogma was better than another.
Originally Posted By Ursula And on this whole miracle thing. Why aren't there miracles now but they had them back in the biblical times? Sure, you say that there are miracles around us every day. Really? Like the ones back then? See, I didn't think so. Feeding a large group of people on small provisions, walking on water, raising the dead (and not just the mostly dead), etc. This is what I want to see, not the miracle of life or the wonders of nature.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "because they don't want to change their life stile. or admit ANYTHING / ANYONE is more in control than their self!" This sort of response always perplexes me. It seems to imply that non-believers actually do believe in religion, but don't want to admit it because they don't want to "change their lifestyles" or something similar. Is it really so hard to believe that some people just don't see the "logic" behind the Christian faith?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Aliens from another world visit Earth who subscribe to the same religion as exists already here." What would be really interesting is if they ended up looking just like human beings. That would really make me think twice about the "created in God's image" thing. Great topics, Mr. X!!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "And on this whole miracle thing. Why aren't there miracles now but they had them back in the biblical times?" Uh oh - a Doubting Tomas!! ;-) But seriously, this has always bothered me too - why is it such a virtue to believe in something that we cannot see. If there is a God, what is the point of his being so secretive and mysterious? What good does it do to keep your people "guessing" all the time? It really shouldn't be seen as such a good thing to just take something "on faith". I would think we should be encouraged to use our brains a little bit more...
Originally Posted By utahjosh <What would be really interesting is if they ended up looking just like human beings. That would really make me think twice about the "created in God's image" thing.> That would support my believe in "created in God's image" thing. I believe God created the whole known universe..and I have no problem with other people on other planets, and I presume they look like us.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 I should point out that when we do actually find aliens, and if they don't look like us or share our religions, that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any god. It will just give more proof to the idea that none of our current concepts of god are correct.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan What if these aliens had faith in a God that they couldn't see, and it required faith on their part as well?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But seriously, this has always bothered me too - why is it such a virtue to believe in something that we cannot see. If there is a God, what is the point of his being so secretive and mysterious? What good does it do to keep your people "guessing" all the time? It really shouldn't be seen as such a good thing to just take something "on faith". I would think we should be encouraged to use our brains a little bit more...<< Yep. It seems like there's an awful lot of plausible deniability in religion. But of course, the religious recognize this, so they've concocted explanations for it. God did this on *purpose*. God's deliberately tough to pin down. That way, we all have faith. God requires us to have faith in him (though beyond superficial explanations, it's never really quite clear why). This approach does seem a bit schizophrenic. On the one hand, we're told that the evidence is all around us. We just need to open our eyes! But when we do challenge some specifics, or make it clear that it really isn't all that obvious, we're told "well duh! God isn't going to make it obvious. What's the point of that!" So depending on which argument they're responding to, there's either tons of evidence for God, or the lack of evidence is the evidence. Either way, they win.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I'm not a non-believer, but I've sometimes thought what could make me stop being a Christian and start believing something else. Here's what might do it. I had a dream once in which God spoke to everyone on earth simultaneously, in all languages, and everyone knew it was happening. He basically said "Each of the major religions has a piece of the puzzle, but not the whole thing. I'm now going to tell you the real deal. I did this once before, tens of thousands of years ago, but this was before you guys could even write, so it got lost and splintered. So write this down! Now you'll know and you'll have no excuse to keep fighting each other over Me any more. Here's the real deal..." Of course, I woke up before anything was revealed. (Don't you hate when that happens?) But yeah, if God spoke to everyone on earth simultaneously in all languages and said Islam is the true religion, or Buddhism or whatever, I'd stop being a Christian. Or if He said none of you have it exactly right, and here's the real deal, I'd believe in that.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Okay, then suppose the God they had faith in was slightly different than the basic concept of God we have here on earth. Assume some of their beliefs seemed a contradiction to some of Earth's major religions' basic underpinnings. Would we accept their version? Would they accept ours? Could we co-exist with two differing views of God and the afterlife, or would we wind up at war over it?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I had a dream once in which God spoke to everyone on earth simultaneously<< Geeze. My dreams almost always involve finding myself back in high school on the day of a big test, in my underwear. Why can't I have more important dreams??? ; )
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Could we co-exist with two differing views of God and the afterlife, or would we wind up at war over it?" Sounds like the makings of a great sci-fi novel!! If you want to write it, I know at least I'd be interested in reading it!! ;-)
Originally Posted By utahjosh " if He said none of you have it exactly right, and here's the real deal, I'd believe in that." Well, He didn't appear the the whole world and announce it, but that's generally what I believe He said to Joseph Smith in 1820. That the religions of the world are all splinters of an original truth that had been lost, and Joseph was given a really good piece of the Puzzle in the Book of Mormon and instructed to restore the "Real Deal."
Originally Posted By mele Again, thinking of God creating us, making believe through faith but not making His reality obvious to everyone just so the true believers can have everlasting life with Him in Heaven and everyone else can just go straight to Hell...well, I have a hard time with that concept. Are we really just some huge ego stroke? Could God really be that petty? It just seems like another human interpretation of the unknowable God. Is God just a bigger version of a human parent, with all of the same insecurities and discipline if we make mistakes? That seems like such a small definition of what life is about. Thinking about it that makes life seem so...bland, robotic and un-miraculous to me. Thankfully, I don't have these beliefs but when I start to dissect what I've been taught in Church...I just feel glad to be free of traditional religious beliefs. It's not because I don't want to give up control of my life, it's not a temper tantrum...these things just don't ring true with my own spirit.
Originally Posted By mele Argh, first line should say: "Again, thinking of God creating us, making US believe through faith but not making reality obvious to everyone just so the true believers..." Ah, this sentence sucks and I don't think I can fix it. LOL
