Originally Posted By FerretAfros The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that the Confederate flag has been removed from the Hall of Flags area (stairs/escalators) of the American Adventure: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-disney-confederate-flag-epcot-down-20150708-story.html">http://www.orlandosentinel.com...ory.html</a> >>The resort has removed a version of the Confederate banner from a flag display in Epcot's American Adventure. Disney acknowledged it took down the flag recently but would not comment further.<< At risk of venturing into WE territory... There's a very strong argument to be made against flying it over places like a statehouse or pretty much anywhere on its own. But in the context of all the flags around it, I think it fits in a historically appropriate place like this. Even the National Parks Service has spoken out, saying that they will keep the flag in museum-type displays where it's appropriate. It's not something to exactly celebrate, but if we can't learn from the past, we're doomed to repeat it. As far as I can tell, the flag is still represented during the main show itself, as it appears a few times during the Two Brothers segment. Plus, Frederick Douglass is still there talking about the injustice of slavery Not to mention Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods are still prominently featured in the show's finale, and Michael Jackson is still wiggling away as Captain EO in the front of the park. Earlier this week, Disney removed a bust of Bill Cosby from the oh-so-80's Academy of Television Arts & Sciences Hall of Fame Plaza at the Studios. It's really interesting to me what they're willing to keep and what is quietly removed
Originally Posted By Mr X My take: as mentioned in a previous thread, the state has no business flying it ANYWHERE in an official capacity... The other stuff? Mostly historical, some free speech related, and if someone thinks it appropriate I don't really think we need to retire the General Lee (nor the Dukes), but that's just my take...
Originally Posted By FerretAfros How long will it be before Six Flags has to change their name? There's really no education or context going on there (unlike Epcot) so there's really no point to it. Seems like a much more appropriate thing for the pitchfork brigade to get upset about
Originally Posted By dagobert What was the reason for removing the flag? Wasn't it the recent shooting in the church in South Carolina? I find it strange that it was taken away from EPCOT. The American Pavillion functions as a museum about history too. But I also find it strange that it is still officially used at pulic buildings (atleast I read that somewhere), since the Confederation doesn't exist anymore. It would be the same if Austria would still use the flag from the Austrian-Hungarian monarchy.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "What was the reason for removing the flag?" For us African Americans it is a disgraceful symbol of white supremacy. The flag is a reminder that treasonous white Southerners fought and died for the right to keep my ancestors as property. It's ridiculous that it has taken years of racial injustice and the SCOTUS ruling on marriage equality to make people finally see the light. I'm pleased to hear that Disney has removed the flag from the American Adventure. It has no place being hung alongside flags of other nations in any context.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>> For us African Americans it is a disgraceful symbol of white supremacy. The flag is a reminder that treasonous white Southerners fought and died for the right to keep my ancestors as property. It's ridiculous that it has taken years of racial injustice and the SCOTUS ruling on marriage equality to make people finally see the light.<<< I know that, but there has to be an incident for removing the flag NOW. I mean they could have done it all the years before. Please don't get me wrong, since I totally understand your reasoning, but isn't the American Pavillion about the history of the US? The civil war and the Confederation are part of that history. Although EPCOT is a themepark, to some degree it has an educational function too, and although this flag is part of a very dark part of your history, it is part of that history and should stay for educational reasons. Or am I totally wrong on how the flag was used in the Pavillion?
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>What was the reason for removing the flag? Wasn't it the recent shooting in the church in South Carolina?<< Yes, that was the impetus for the current movement toward removing it, but there has obviously been a longstanding (though less passionate) movement to bring it down. The flag actually flew over the SC statehouse dome until the late 90's/early 00's, so there's been slow but steady progress >>I find it strange that it was taken away from EPCOT. The American Pavillion functions as a museum about history too.<< Me too. It hung in the Hall of Flags, which is along the route into the theater. The CM introduces the show and the idea behind the Hall before letting guests in, so it's not exactly like it's taken out of context. Especially since the Hall contains all of the post-Columbus flags that have flown over parts of the US, I think it belongs there. It may not be our proudest moment, but history isn't supposed to be about making you feel good >>But I also find it strange that it is still officially used at pulic buildings (atleast I read that somewhere), since the Confederation doesn't exist anymore.<< I also find this strange. I can see an argument for using it in memorials (since the Civil War has more US casualties than all other wars combined), but even that is a sensitive issue. Technically, the flag at the SC statehouse was part of a memorial, but I was there earlier this year and all I really remember was the flag and possibly some sort of stone pillar next to it; it didn't do much to try and contextualize it.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I'm pleased to hear that Disney has removed the flag from the American Adventure. It has no place being hung alongside flags of other nations in any context.<< I disagree. Although it's obviously a sensitive issue, I think it belongs in that context. It's essentially a museum, and guests aren't allowed in until the CM explains the flags they're about to see. That is then followed up by the main presentation, which I think does a good job of explaining the issues without being overly heavy-handed. When taken within the context of the pavilion (especially considering its actual museum in the lobby, where guests often view artifacts related to slavery while they wait for the next show) I think it fits And it's a muddy issue, but for all intents and purposes, the Confederacy was treated as a country of its own for a few years. Looking at the way the war was fought and the source documents from the Union, there's little doubt that they saw it as a sovereign country. It's not the US's best moment, but it's also not something that we should overlook. The only way to not repeat history is to learn from it
Originally Posted By FerretAfros In hindsight, it's probably a good thing that many of the attractions at Disney's America never got built. There was one in particular that was supposed to be an interactive/multi-media experience of what slave life was like. Even in the less sensitive 1990's, I just can't see any way that they could have done that in an appropriate manner
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I mean they could have done it all the years before.<< After the killings in South Carolina at the hands of a racist maniac, people felt the need to do SOMEthing. Stopping maniacs with guns is a complicated, difficult process with no clear answer. A racist symbol, on the other hand, is the low-hanging fruit. It's merely a symbolic gesture to remove the confederate flag from government buildings, but symbolic gestures are not a bad thing. Sending the message that government does not support racism is the LEAST we can do. The confederate flag, remember, was put back in use as a show of resistance and defiance against the fight for civil rights. It was a big screw-you to African Americans and others who dared to thing they deserved equal rights with white people. It's a shameful relic of a shameful chapter of our history. In a museum, it can be given the proper context and an ongoing reminder of what a few centuries of stubborn, ignorant hate looks like.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>There was one in particular that was supposed to be an interactive/multi-media experience of what slave life was like.<< Ugh. I can't imagine that being done, in a theme park setting, in any way that wouldn't be hideously trite or straight out offensive. This whole debate about the confederate flag shows that we have done a crap job of teaching our own history. The nonsense about the flag representing "heritage" and the rewriting the cause of the civil war has been depressing to witness. People have twisted themselves into knots trying to reimagine that the war wasn't 'really' about slavery. And that is simply a lie.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "The civil war and the Confederation are part of that history." Should the Nazi flag be flown at EPCOT too? After all it was a part of German history.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>Should the Nazi flag be flown at EPCOT too? After all it was a part of German history. <<< I compared the American Pavillion with a museum. Over here the Nazi flag is shown in museums and in educational centers that are about Nazi Germany, since that time is part of our history. It's not shown in public areas, since that is forbidden. The German Pavillion is definitely not about the history of the country, but the American Pavillion is about the history of the US, or am I wrong on that? We didn't spend so much time in there.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>Should the Nazi flag be flown at EPCOT too? After all it was a part of German history.<< If there were to be an exhibit on German history, I don't see any reason why not. As it stands, the German pavilion is really only a few shops, beer stands, and a restaurant, so I'm not sure how/if they could make it work. The exhibit in the back of the Japan pavilion has often included imagery of the "rising sun" flag that they used during WWII. I took German in high school, and we certainly spent a lot of time talking about the Nazis, how they came to power, what they did while they were in power, and what their lasting impact has been (not the least of which was a divided country throughout the late 20th century). Any discussion of German history that omits the Nazi movement doesn't do anybody justice. Similarly, any discussion of US history that overlooks slavery and the Civil War does a disservice to the progress that has been made since then, and the work that we still have in front of us It's not like the flag was standing proudly outside the pavilion, blowing in the wind. It was hanging in an exhibit within it, as an acknowledgement of what has happened in the past. I personally think that trying to pretend it isn't a part of our history is more detrimental and offensive than admitting what happened
Originally Posted By dagobert I guess I'm not the right person to discuss that matter, since I'm not American and since I don't know that much about your history, except tha basic facts that we had to learn in school. I was just curious. However I do understand that it is a sensitive topic and so I'm quitting this discussion since I'm afraid I might say something wrong and hurt someone.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>The German Pavillion is definitely not about the history of the country, but the American Pavillion is about the history of the US, or am I wrong on that?<< That's correct. Most of the World Showcase pavilions focus on the country's culture, which plays into the World's Fair concept. The American Adventure is really the only one with such a strong history component, which makes sense considering that most visitors are quite aware of American culture. Some of the other pavilions have history incorporated in various aspects (the aforementioned Japan museum that rotates exhibits, Morocco museum, terra cotta warrior exhibit in China, etc), though there's not very much depth. Considering that the US pavilion has a lot more depth, I'm not sure how they could theoretically get away with ignoring these issues It's also addressed in the Hall of Presidents in the Magic Kingdom. Given that park has a *much* less serious tone, I'm always impressed by how tastefully done that attraction is.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I guess I'm not the right person to discuss that matter, since I'm not American and since I don't know that much about your history, except tha basic facts that we had to learn in school. I was just curious.<< It's always good to see things from an outsider's perspective. As an ongoing issue, this is certainly something that is distinctly American, and can be difficult for us to fully understand. Discussing it is really the only way to learn from it and move forward
Originally Posted By FerretAfros In an interesting twist of events, it sounds like Disney has only removed the "blood stained" flag that contains the Confederate battle flag that's currently at the center of debate, but left the "stars and bars" flag that was the Confederate flag before it. Both can be seen in this image. The now-removed flag is behind the blue Texas flag, and the other one is behind the California Republic flag: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://land.allears.net/blogs/photoblog/hall_of_flags_st.jpg">http://land.allears.net/blogs/...s_st.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<People have twisted themselves into knots trying to reimagine that the war wasn't 'really' about slavery. And that is simply a lie.>> Yes. Many down here refer to the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression". They swear that the Confederacy seceded merely because of a dispute over "state's rights" and that it was the North that made it all about slavery in an attempt to justify war with the confederacy.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt >>>Should the Nazi flag be flown at EPCOT too? After all it was a part of German history. <<< "I compared the American Pavillion with a museum." But it isn't a museum. It's a show in a theme park. It references American History, yes, but not every piece of ugly American history is appropriate for presentation at a Disney theme park. Certainly not the Confederate flag casually hanging with flags of other nations. Isis claims to be a sovereign nation too. Should its flag be hung at the American Adventure with the others? "Over here the Nazi flag is shown in museums and in educational centers that are about Nazi Germany, since that time is part of our history." So then put one (Stars and Bars) in a case at EPCOT with a detailed explanation included of what it symbolizes to millions of people. I could live with that. I'm mostly objecting to it being hung with the other national flags.
