Originally Posted By davewasbaloo People who use to love Disney but now feel they have lost their way I have put this on Facebook for those that are on there: <a href="http://www.facebook.com/group" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/group</a>. php?gid=8804342394 Growing up I was obessed by Disney, the attention to detail, the innovation, the no expense spared approach, the artistry, the magic, the entertainment and the educational ability. always thinking about and visting the parks, I must have spent 300+ days in the orginal Disneyland, 8 weeks in WDW and 49 vacations at DLP. I am currently saving for a mega trip to HKDL and TDL. But now I am rethinking life. Disney has had it's ups and downs, but lately it seems down, down, down. Toons and thrills seem to be the only thing the parks can do anymore - look at additions to all the resorts over the last 10 years and the plans for DCA over the coming years. Rubberheads replace themed entertainment. The menus of WDW are dumbed down thanks to the dining plan. And the maintenance of DLP and the MK are really poor. Occassionally elements like the new lights in the floral Mickey brings hope. But for now it's one step forwards, three steps back. And I am tired of it. But so many fan sites treat me like I am alone. The hotels and restaurants do not offer the quality experience of their competitors, and the family friendly standards the park started has diminished. And if it's not pirates, princess, pins or plush - the shops don't sell it. Maybe I am getting old, but I sure miss the good old days. Anyone else? If you feel the same way, it would be wonderful of you to sign up and be counted.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: What a coincidence, davewasbaloo, duckling! Orwen and I were just saying we wouldn't be surprised to find you over here expressing the same concerns you had expressed earlier and elsewhere. And--as we said before--we understand where you're coming from. It's that whole Jay Rasulo influence that has a lot of Disney fans down in the dumps over what's been happening within the company. But don't you worry. You're not alone and there are still some great things to be coming in the future for fans like you who care. ORWEN: In the meantime, I still have the softest shoulder in this coven--in case you ever need it.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I share your feelings to an extent...enough of an extent to say, "Yeah things aren't the way they used to be. The "Magic" seems to be slipping away." I do however think that there are at least three major factors to be considered. No, let's make that 4. I list them in the order of severity, number 1 being the most agregious. 1.) The new management just isn't Walt, and lacks the personal attachment to the company to say, "We don't care how much money we make or don't make, we want to be THE BEST." <--- which surprises me as much as Steve Jobs is involved, being that Apple has always struck me as a company that DOES follow the idea of being the best, throw caution to the wind. 2.) There are so many more PEOPLE and customers that GOTO Disney parks and buy Disney DVD's now, that Disney can easily get away with being less than it once was. To me, (and many will disagree) the total sellout to Pixar was the first grand scale evidence of this. "Oh we don't have what it takes anymore to lead, so let's just buy the competition...yeah that'll do it." (I miss you Michael, look what "they" are doing to Disney! It's going down exactly like you warned us it would. *sniff sniff*) 3.) The competition has absorbed vast talent that used to be Disney's people. Yes yes you are going to say that these are people mistreated by Michael, that he ran them off because he was power hungry and paranoid. Okay fine, skip the Ovitz thing, let's discuss Kratzenburg. Dreamworks is doing some fantastic things. But really now, we all know that there never was room at the top for Michael AND Jeffery. But alas, the competition is getting harsh which would normally mean Disney should get "harsher" <--- (new word,) but I don't see that happeninig outside of Pixar. 4.) Newcomers to Disney don't have the history, they don't know what it WAS like in the grand ol' days when there was only DL and MK. So, they don't see a problem when something happens like this: MK serves guests inside of Cinderella's castle. It's fabulous food, it's a world class service, and it's a slow, easly consumed meal and respite for the middle of your day. But then....time passes, and now, the Cinderella's Royal Table is this: Volume based, get as many rubes in here as we can, stuff them, sell them those photos, and get them the hell outta here. Oh, and forget that "kids under 2 eat free" crap. They come in here, their older brothers get a sword, they don't. If they want a sword and something other than noodles and water, they gotta fork over another 30 bucks! Oh and who cares if they get their desert WITH the main course, maybe they will eat faster! Besides, all these new guests have no clue what it USED to be like, their stupid. So yeah on the one hand, I totally feel your pain with this and other examples. But I also realize it isn't really on purpose that the company is doing this and other terrible things in the parks. I really think they are just trying to cope and keep up, while keeping the bottom line as black as possible. The one thing we all must come to grips with Dave, and everyone else who loves Disney, (and I cry to say it) ... There will never be another Walt, ever. It is now a ship cast out to sea and I'll keep clinging aboard because I do love Disney very much. But things change, people move on, and we just have to hold on to what is positive and hope for the best.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad *Katzenburg.... sorry for spelling "Besides, all these new guests have no clue what it USED to be like, their stupid." <--- this isn't me saying that, this is supposed to have been in quotations to depict management thinking this way.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome Dave - I had mentioned in another thread (elsewhere), but I think you should change the name slightly. When I read it, it sounds like you are calling for those who've left the Disney fold. Who once loved it, but no longer do.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Well, of course you're not alone, dear!! And if you'd spend more time in Morva you'd never have any doubts about such things!! Now, be a love and drop in on us ANY time! ORGOCH: 'cept when I's away on a frog hunt! Cain't entertain ya if'n I ain't home!!
Originally Posted By USCSurfer "There will never be another Walt, ever." Does that sum it up, or what? I would have to say that I concur with much of what you say, DVC. As well as you, dave. I was a Disneyland Attractions Cast Member from the early 80s to the early 90s so have my own angle here as to what I've seen, and felt over the years. When I first hired in I heard so much about what it used to be like to work there, as well. I found myself almost regretting not being older so I could have had the chance to work at the park during the 60s and 70s. Walt passed away in the 60s, but the way many of my fellow CMs talked, his spirit was still strong enough to keep the passion and magic alive well into the 70s. Many of the people I worked with had been there from the 50s and the 60s and remember talking to him personally as he'd greet them in the park. So there was still that family connection into the early 80s with those who had worked there during its hey day. Shortly after I hired in, things started to change with regard to how we felt as Cast Members. We had always heard how Walt loved his Cast Members and how integral we were to the show. In the mid '80s, Disney went from "Productions" to "Company." That said a lot I think. Now we have the Disney/Pixar age. (I still haven't seen any of these movies. I guess I take my purist sentiments very seriously, huh?) DVC, you mention a scenario with Disney where it has become almost like giving up leadership to "join" others. Paraphrase, I know. I can see where you're coming from. I'm not business-minded by any stretch, so coming here and offering ideas as to how things should be run would make me look silly. All I can offer is my opinions based on the feelings I too have experienced over the years. Some may disagree with me, but I felt a little disconnect, even with the whole Star Tours thing. Disneyland had always had sponsorships, I know....Dole, Monsanto, TWA, BofA, etc. But Star Tours, with its Star Wars tie in, brought a whole new corporate dimension to the park. I love Star Wars, but it's just not Disney. You had Disney "joining" creative forces with Lucas to create this attraction. Now with all the Star Wars merchandise, it has added whole new angle to that corner of the park. Same for Indy. Certainly they remain true to theme, but they are driven by movie mogul entities in and of themselves (Lucas and Spielberg). They're not Disney which I choose to see as its OWN unique and special entity...who doesn't need the creative forces of others to be successful. Luckily though Splash went in shortly therafter. That took a classic Disney movie based on an old tale, and created a great attraction. It was based on a movie by Disney, and I think Walt would be proud of this attraction. I live in the OC, and still go to Disneyland. I will always love it. It will always bring back fond memories, it will always bring about the spirt of Walt for me, and it will always provide the escape for me that revitalizes me in magical ways. Funny though how I tend to shy away from DCA. I'll wander over there for a bit sometimes, but Disneyland feels warmer to me. It's like coming home. Heck, when it comes time to pop in a DVD, I will reach for The Parent Trap (the older version), Summer Magic, Old Yeller; or Cinderella, Snow White, or Peter Pan. These are what Disney represent to me. When at the park, Star Tours and Indiana Jones are great attractions, technology-wise, but I just don't get into them as much as I get into the others...others that I feel represent Disney. I know I go a little overboard with the purist thing. So these are all my personal opinions. But that's me. There is NOTHING (in my book) that compares to Tiki, Small World, Pirates, Mansion, or any of the dark rides. I know Pirates and Mansion opened after Walt's death, but they were part of his vision, and he knew they were on his creative table. I tend to focus on these attractions when I'm in the park as I pay homage to his memory, both as a former CM, and now, a guest. When we look at the Disney name, it is indeed all about Walt in my book. Nowadays you can see where his vision is still (maybe) present in some areas, but sadly, and way too commonly, you can easily see where they aren't too. This is just my opinion as a humble, former Cast Member; a Cast Member who is not the least bit business minded, so doesn't have the answers as to how Walt's dream could be continued in the purist way possible. I do tend to think a little too simplistically. I want to believe though that somehow his visions can continue without taking some of the directions it has. Maybe I'm naive. All I do know is that I wish Walt would have lived a lot longer. It would be interesting to see what Walt would say about the changes that have taken place. What do you guys think?
Originally Posted By dcwmjm It all comes down to this...WDW began with Walt's vision of the EPCOT of which the Magic Kingdom theme park was just one element. It was to be the engine for getting the Florida project started. The Magic Kingdom became so successful (and rightfully so) that the public never identified with the true vision. When I think of the Magic Kingdom, part of the "magic" is it related to the "big picture - the great experiment of EPCOT". Just think of the impact EPCOT in its full vision would have had on our society and the free enterprise system (we're seeing some of the results of it now for example in our dependence on individual transportation vs. mass transportation (eg. people mover and monorail concepts). Just saw the movie "Meet the Robinsons". The movie ends with a quote from Walt in which he conveys the importance of continuing "to move forward" (wish I knew the entire quote). Funny how in some respect WDW is really not moving forward but has gotten stuck in the cloning a great idea (the theme park). Bottom line...it's never too late - I pose the challenge - will WDW move forward through taking the next steps in the realization of EPCOT? The fire has never gone out!
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I tend to agree, in principal, with you folks, in that overall quality is declining and the "vision" is being replaced by thrill rides and corporate supremacy. Indeed, there will never be another Walt Disney and we all have to come to grips with the fact that he now exists in name only. When Walt was alive he owned it. He was general manager, CEO and Monarch. He didn't have to answer to stock holders that insist that they get a return on their investment. After reading many biographies on Walt's life, I think that I can safely state that Walt would have changed a lot of things. He had a bit of a attention deficit and got bored with things very quickly. The sure sign of a creative man. The past must always make way for the future. There is a better than even chance that if Walt were here you would see the same stuff that you see now. His ability to read the public would have, probably made it so they had highly themed thrill attractions ages ago. That said, I probably don't notice the decline as much because I never stay on site and I never eat at the "expensive" Disney Restaurants. I didn't do that even before you were required to do that 6 months in advance. (I don't know what I want to eat tonight, much less 180 days from now) Because of that I really don't mind the changes. The only two attractions that I really miss are 20K and World of Motion. Everything else, to me, is an improvement. (Well, maybe Imagination didn't leap forward) Times have changed and I really believe that Walt would have changed with them. He never stood in one spot, ever! He was constantly moving forward. If you really want to blame something for the reduced spending in the parks, speak with the Board of Directors. They are the ones that think their CEO's are worth millions per year and salary plus additional millions in stock options (further diluting profits per share) and golden umbrellas for executives regardless of the idea that they may have been asked to go due to incompetency. It's hard to imagine how there is any money left over to actually run the company.
Originally Posted By barboy "I am currently saving for a mega trip to HKDL and TDL. But now I am rethinking life." You know dave, I know what you are saying about this "Wal-Marting" as Spirit talks about and this overload of pirates and princesses coupled with the ubiquitous dining plans floating around property and the Pixarization of the parks leaves one not only concerned about the current state affairs of Disney theme parks but the future as well. But keep saving for Asia no matter what goes down at DLR or WDW because HKDL although very small, modest and unambitious is amzingly charming and offers a unique experience. Besides nothing can prepare you for the tram ride up Victoria Peak and that view overlooking Hong Kong! And Tok. Dis. Res. is beyond magical in attraction lineups, customer service, cleanliness/maintenance---- besides the Japanese culture will keep you bug eyed--- it's not a different country but a different planet.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome When I see Disney building DVC and selling/leasing for 50 or so years, I always sort of wonder if Disney will even be relevant in 50 years. Walt Disney World is 36 now. What is the next generation going to think about the parks, or the one after that? Disney needs to maintain quality, and not just go for thrills or kiddie stuff. I'm sure every state has a thrill-ride park, so there is no need to travel to Florida for one. Or for crap like Primeval Whirl. I don't know if Disney has a real clear vision for the future. Disney still does a lot of things right. But why can't the parks have high-quality counter service? Earl of Sandwich does it. WP Express and the Cheesecake Factory Express can do it. Why do I go to the parks and find little I want to eat? And I'd rather have a handful of great attractions (not necessarily E-tickets) than a bunch of junky ones. Like I said - there are many things I love about Disney. Epcot, Animal Kingdom, the wand came down (yay), the Haunted Mansion re-do, Everest. I still love Fort Wilderness and the Boardwalk area, I just enjoy being on-property. But Disney doesn't have some special patent on service, I have received better service and nicer rooms elsewhere for less money. So many people say that they find the Swan and Dolphin "less Disney". I'm not sure what that means. It's in a great area, I've always had terrific service, and I think the restaurants are overall high quality. The only thing "less Disney" for me is that you can sometimes get it for $129.00 per night. Letsee - Boardwalk for $300+, S/D for $129...let me think... It would be nice to see more people at the helm who had a real vision for the parks and resort.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome >> overload of pirates and princesses coupled with the ubiquitous dining plans floating around property << Yuck, Pirates and Princesses. Disney does tend to take ideas and run them into the ground. I really used to enjoy the show "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire". Then it was on 4 times a week, and it crumbled under it's own weight. Disney needs to strike a nice balance, and not do any one thing too much. I also don't want to see Pirates and Princess merchandise at every store in the parks (or High School Musical, Hannah Montana, etc.).
Originally Posted By dcwmjm I still go back to the vision...EPCOT. Interesting how that doesn't spark further conversation. Well...some are experimenting in the concept of EPCOT...just look at what is going on in Dubai. What truly was 50 years ahead of his time! Don't get me wrong...I really enjoy the parks. But the story will always be the same without a compelling vision...it's not just about the entertainment of theme parks.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome ^^ I understand the original concept of Epcot, but it isn't something I really think about or feel I could discuss in a knowledgeable way. I also know nothing about Dubai.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Will Disney still be around in 50 years? I don't think there is any question about that. The U.S. parks attract more and more people each year. Without even getting into the quagmire of 'quality', Disney certainly seems to have no problem with popularity. Has Disney changed since I first visited WDW in 1991? Yes, it has... and I wasn't even around for the glory years of the 80's. But then what hasn't changed significantly in the past 17 years? The Disney parks do not live in a vacuum, and as the world outside Reedy Creek changes the world inside Reedy Creek will change also. Some of these changes I like... The addition of Animal Kingdom More lodging options More non-park entertainment options Some of these changes I don't like... Decline in cleanliness Decline in service Decreased park hours But at the end of the day I still look forward to a WDW vacation more than any other place I go. If you don't feel that way, by all means stop going. A Disney vacation costs way too much to go and not enjoy. As you know, there are plenty of non-Disney vacation destinations that are spectacular. I happen to prefer WDW, but I have also greatly enjoyed many non-Disney vacations at various locations in the U.S. You owe the Disney Parks nothing. If you don't enjoy them any more, there is no reason for you to keep tossing money at them.
