Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>To me a salient point that everyone has failed to mention in their coverage, is that Disney requires the teams and their families to stay on the Walt Disney World property if they are going to participate in the Pop Warner championship. It's not like the teams chose to sign this agreement and stay with Disney. They were forced to sign to play in the championship.>> A great point. These groups have no choice since the parent organization sells its soul to Disney in order to have the event at WDW. So no one has the choice of saying 'We'd really like to save $5,000 by staying at the local Holiday Inn.' Disney basically holds them hostage if they want to take part, although it is a two-way street since they get Disney's marketing machine to push the event! <<This article in the Boston Globe from January shows the kind of pressure this puts teams and their families under to raise money for the trip and how much money Disney makes when teams aren't allowed to stay at off property hotels that could save them a lot of money. <a href="http://www.boston.com/sports/s" target="_blank">http://www.boston.com/sports/s</a> chools/football/articles/2007/01/07/if_they_want_to_play_they_have_to_pay/?page=1 >"We could have saved a lot of money if we went to one of the other hotels around here," said Daryel Barros, who coached the New Haven Steelers in the Pop Warner Midget playoffs at the Disney complex. While rooms were available at a nearby Comfort Inn through Expedia.com for $51.43 a night during Pop Warner's championships, Disney's least expensive package for the Pop Warner teams required a three-night stay (four persons per room) at Disney's All-Star Sports Resort and a four-day theme park pass for $319 per person. At that rate, Disney received $1,276 per room, or nearly $425 a night. "We're going home about $8,000 in debt," said Barros, one of many coaches and parents associated with Pop Warner teams who said they remained in debt after exhausting charitable donations.<>> Yeah, and I doubt very much the Comfort Inn would have roused families with babies that had no part of this incident and told them if they didn't leave in 20 minutes, the sheriff was coming to remove them. Magical! I'd love to be working in Disney PR now. This one isn't being handled in O-Town. Nope Zenia and/or Leslie will be having meetings in Burbank all day!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I am absolutely intolerant of bad behavior, and think Disney should do even more in this direction, frankly. The place is there for everyone to enjoy together, not a barnyard where people can behave like animals. >> Jon, I completely agree. I've been saying this for years. The problem is how you handle it and with whom. Disney bungled this terribly. I see incredibly bad behavior, often dangerous, at WDW's parks and resorts, that is let go ... CMs see it and choose to ignore it. Or they confront it, get abused and then let it go. Let's say you have 1,000 kids and 30 are trouble-makers. Why should they and their families suffer ... and suffer in such a humiliating way? I had a similar experience last year on an RCCL 9-night cruise in November. Apparently, all of New Jersey's white trash was off on vacation and onboard. The tweens were running wild. Spitting from decks, pushing every button in elevators, causing problems at the pool etc ... the company did a piss-poor job of dealing with it. Finally, they confronted five families in Aruba (which was like Day 6 or 7) after taking the kids' cruise cards away and wanted to leave the families there (something that should have been done). Four of them talked their way out of it and only one family got left behind. The situation was no better for the rest of the cruise even though everyone was talking about what happened. Why can't people behave in public? How far have we devolved as a society?
Originally Posted By nbodyhome I think the Comfort Inn might have kicked the kids out. But it wouldn't have been news. I haven't seen exactly what the guests sign prior to checking in. But Disney could use a cheaper lodging area on property to house them away from the regular guests. Sort of like the boy scouts and other groups at Fort Wilderness.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Disney needs to re-think the whole Pop Warner and big sports groups. If Disney needs the revenue that badly, they should keep the groups separated from the guests as much as possible. And I am sure there are many, many well-behaved kids, but a few can spoil it for everyone. >> Denise, this isn't a sports issue. It's a behavioral one. By individuals. Imagine if you replaced the Pop Warner group with any other followed by 'segregate' ... you don't treat a group spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe more) like lepers. And having been to Night of Joy, you know this behavior goes on with all kinds of groups. Pop Warner is a wonderful organization that does a lot of good work with kids, and helps keep them out of a trouble. You don't allow a couple of bad eggs ruin the whole batch.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I haven't seen exactly what the guests sign prior to checking in. But Disney could use a cheaper lodging area on property to house them away from the regular guests. Sort of like the boy scouts and other groups at Fort Wilderness.>> If those numbers in the Globe story are accurate, as far as what they pay, they should likely have been at a moderate or deluxe resort. These groups really sell their souls to Disney for the cache of being able to have their events at WDW.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome I don't think that groups should be treated like lepers. I agree with the Night of Joy as well. BUT, the Night of Joy kids aren't there for a week, they are there for hours. You have a group of kids, a LARGE group of kids - who are there for a week with Pop Warner. If the Night of Joy was for a week, I'd have issues with that as well. I have no problem with making teen-friendly, inexpensive housing for these events. I think it would be better for everyone.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome >>If those numbers in the Globe story are accurate, as far as what they pay, they should likely have been at a moderate or deluxe resort.<< I don't know everything that was included with the package. Just room and tickets? Did they get food vouchers? Did that include event admission? I can't say that it is a good or bad price, not knowing what the package entailed.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Because we are having incredible weather here in Atlanta, two of my friends from DC visited me this past weekend. One friend ( who grew up in Florida ) made an intresting point. He said that our society is encouraging people to become borderline personalities. His point was that there are no personal boundries anymore. Letting kids "duke" it out is criminal behavior. Allowing kids to behave like vandals is unacceptable. Disney should not tolerate this on any level.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I don't think that groups should be treated like lepers. I agree with the Night of Joy as well. BUT, the Night of Joy kids aren't there for a week, they are there for hours. You have a group of kids, a LARGE group of kids - who are there for a week with Pop Warner. If the Night of Joy was for a week, I'd have issues with that as well.>> I'm sure that plenty of people who come in for Night of Joy make a vacation out of it, or at least a long weekend. That was Disney's thinking for scheduling on the least-busiest weekend of the entire year to begin with. <<I don't know everything that was included with the package. Just room and tickets? Did they get food vouchers? Did that include event admission? I can't say that it is a good or bad price, not knowing what the package entailed.>> It says tickets. I don't see food mentioned, but I wouldn't doubt it. But it also says it was the least expensive package and that it equaled $425 a night ... think about that figure ... for a value resort ... even if you have four kids in each room with tix etc ... that price sounds totally wacky.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<He said that our society is encouraging people to become borderline personalities. His point was that there are no personal boundries anymore.>> I agree with that, Tom. But I think it's more a sign of people being angry all the time ... and maybe seeing the government getting away with anything these days and feeling 'why shouldn't I?' It isn't a Disney phemomenon ... go to the mall, the movies, out to dinner, to the beach etc ... people are becoming boors at an alarming rate. Sometimes I feel like I'm taking my life in my hands by just leaving the house ... and actually, I am!
Originally Posted By nbodyhome >> I'm sure that plenty of people who come in for Night of Joy make a vacation out of it, or at least a long weekend << Very few. It really is a local event, with local churches - it isn't something that people come to from all over the country for. I used to go during the weekend, and Disneyana used to be at that time too. Disneyana people stayed over, but you didn't see too many kids around. It is very different. And $425 per night is for 4 people. That is $106.25 per night for each. If that includes tickets, event admission, room, and maybe some food vouchers - I'm not sure it's out of line.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains Let me ask this - Was this something that the Teams had to go to - or was it like a tournament that they voluntarily signed up for?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Very few. It really is a local event, with local churches - it isn't something that people come to from all over the country for. I used to go during the weekend, and Disneyana used to be at that time too. Disneyana people stayed over, but you didn't see too many kids around. >> I know it started as a local event like 25 years ago. But Disney markets it to churches all over the country now. They also make sure to list it in all of their promotional materials about seasonal events. So, I would think that the mix has changed since it started ... or at least that is Disney's goal. <<It is very different. And $425 per night is for 4 people. That is $106.25 per night for each. If that includes tickets, event admission, room, and maybe some food vouchers - I'm not sure it's out of line.>> Well, you can't really include event admission since they're the event. It would be like charging an Orlando Magic player to enter the whatever-the-heck they're calling the O-Rena now to play a game. It's basically room and theme park tickets (and likely some of those quick serve food vouchers that all groups seem to have!) But no matter the exact makeup, there's no denying that, if allowed, the teams could save a lot of money by staying off-property. Disney, since it is hosting the event, doesn't allow for that.
Originally Posted By nbodyhome They could certainly save money if they are staying off-property and not buying tickets. I wouldn't have a problem with it. The Night of Joy and Rock the Universe may be mentioned around the country, but honestly - it's not worth the time to visit if you live far away. I don't think so, anyway. You don't see a large mass of kids in the park the next day after the events.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Let me ask this - Was this something that the Teams had to go to - or was it like a tournament that they voluntarily signed up for? >> I'd have to check, but I'm 95% sure that since this is basically a championship tournament for teams from around the country, if they win, they have to go. That's why they do fund-raising etc ... No, Mickey wasn't putting a gun to their heads or anything like that, but if you're involved in youth sports, you go where the organization has its events. Not going would be akin to say GM having an annual sales meeting in Orlando, and the Minnesota district opts to not attend. It's just not done.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains Well if it's a Championship game and not a voluntary tournament then I can see how then end up with kid's that don't necessarily follow the rules. Just watch a high school football game for first place and you will see too many egos all being fed how great they are and no one reminding them they are just kids playing a game... But then again look at many pro players they really don't act much different than these boys did - the difference is they are all little boys who need supervision - well maybe they really aren't that different!! Maybe if they were taught how to act at a place like this they wouldn't grow up to be like lets say Michael Vick (first badboy name that comes to mind)
Originally Posted By jonvn "Let's say you have 1,000 kids and 30 are trouble-makers." As I said, it depends on what the specific facts are in this case. Maybe there were 1000 kids, and 890 of them were trouble makers, to an extreme degree. I think this sends a good message to people to behave. They should do more just like it.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda I used to help plan conferences for a non-profit group in Massachusetts. This group would have around 1000 people in attendance with activities running 24 hours a day from noon on Friday until noon on Sunday. The average age of attendees was 18 to 35. One year when I was in an advisory capacity after planning 3 other year's conferences, our group was almost thrown out of a hotel in Lowell due to the actions of 4 individuals. The only thing that kept us from being thrown out (at 4 am I might add), was calm heads prevailing as well as our excellent reputation from 15 other hotels we had used in previous years. We had to guarantee the hotel that there would be no further incidents. (There weren't) Hotels, and in this Pop Warner case, The Walt Disney Company, needs to protect their assets. As for Disney requiring those participating to stay on site, I don't have a problem with that. It's just an extension of hotel policy where if you rent a banquet room, you have to purchase all food and beverage served in that banquet room from the hotel. There's no telling what else was going on that hasn't made the news. While it is too bad that small children and innocent families were effected, it's long been part of society's "rules" where the actions of a few, reflect on the many.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think this sends a good message to people to behave. They should do more just like it.>> <<There's no telling what else was going on that hasn't made the news. While it is too bad that small children and innocent families were effected, it's long been part of society's "rules" where the actions of a few, reflect on the many.>> I, frankly, find this attitude well ... lousy (although I'm thinking of another word too). I find there to be NO good reason for Disney to have done what was done to people not involved at all in what happened. And, rest assured, people like Erin Wallace are being yelled at from Burbank (Disney execs yell a lot when they aren't in public!) wondering how Disney ever overreacted like it did. That's simple. You have some low-level front desk manager making somewhere between $23,000-28,000 a year (a very true average for that position) at the All Stars or Pop (I'm assumung this is where it took place) that has no real business being in charge except they work cheaply. They don't know how to handle things and jump and completely overreact. A fight that leaves a kid with a broken nose isn't unheard of at WDW, folks. Happens far more than you probably believe. Disney was certainly within its rights to demand the people leave ... at a reasonable hour. But even that likely could have been avoided with some calmer heads prevailing. I wouldn't doubt that Disney will wind up inviting some of these folks back all expenses paid. Something they wouldn't have had to do if they had someone in charge at night that actually knew how to handle a nasty situation. As to the actions of the few reflecting on the many, I think that's an ignorant way of doing business. I don't know how many times I've been with work groups where I've been embarrassed by their behavior, but I shouldn't be penalized for it. This idea that 'it takes a village' is absurd ... I sure wouldn't want to take responsibility for anyone but myself and my family. Like I said ... watch and see how quickly this either disappears (as Disney buys these folks silence with freebies) or becomes a huge PR issue. You have two teams from Oahu where Disney is building a major new resort. It is very safe to say someone in that group has connections either directly or indirectly with some cousins who are dealing with TWDC on the Hotel/DVC project and won't be happy with this situation. They'll play that card. As they should.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I find there to be NO good reason for Disney to have done what was done to people not involved at all in what happened." Actually, there is. It is called peer pressure. If what you do has caused trouble for everyone, then you are going to be very reticent about causing trouble again.
