Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Actually, there is. It is called peer pressure. If what you do has caused trouble for everyone, then you are going to be very reticent about causing trouble again. >> If peer pressure truely worked, we'd have no violent or blue collar crime let alone kids getting into fights. What something like this does is teach a kid 'If I do everything right and earn a trip to WDW, I can have it ruined by people who are totally out of my control.' Doesn't work, Jon. I wish it did, believe me.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 In other words, it teaches kids that if you do the right thing, play inside the rules and behave, others can still ruin things for you, so you have NO incentive whatsoever to do the right thing. It does the complete opposite of what lesson it is supposed to teach.
Originally Posted By jonvn That's right, that's what it teaches kids, that not only do they have to behave, but everyone else does as well. I think it's pretty effective. It is used a lot and works quite well.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I think jonvn is 100% on. The only way Disney really has of controlling groups that large and rambunctious is to have them be self-policing. And how do you do that? You make sure that there will be no excuses. You make sure that conflicting claims of 'he started it' will go nowhere. By making everyone in the group subject to ejection there is HUGE incentive for the parents, organizers and chaperones to keep things under control. I would say in this case they pretty clearly failed to do that and deserved to be tossed out. It's like when my son was in school. There was a 100% no tolerance policy for fighting. No matter who started it, and even if one party really did nothing to fight back, both were subject to weekend detention. It may not be 'fair', but it sure as heck minimized the fighting in his school!!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^Yeah, Trippy. Great policy. Be glad no one had a weapon with your son or you might have buried a child. No tolerance is absurd. It's why Honor Roll kids get thrown out of school for bringing aspirin or Tylenol to school or a Swiss Army Knife for Show and Tell. It's ridiculous. And so is making a group responsible for the actions of all its members. Maybe ever priest should be thrown out of the church since so many have a predilection for having a 10-year-old boy under their robes? Maybe every member of Congress should be jailed because of the actions of a few? Maybe you should have to pay if a co-worker defaults on their Discover Card? Stupid examples? Yeah. Same as making all these people responsible for the actions of a few. But if I'm wrong, Disney won't be inviting anyone back or apologizing ... wanna make a wager?
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<It's ridiculous. And so is making a group responsible for the actions of all its members.>> The story doesn't say exactly how many kids were involved. But Disney didn't throw out all Pop Warner groups, just three. I'm with you on a lot of things, Spirit, but not on this. Those idiots deserved what they got, and you can be sure the parents won't let their kids (or their neighbors kids) forget the time they screwed up a very expensive vacation/tournament.
Originally Posted By johnno52 About 10 years ago we started going to All-Stars for our anniversary around Dec 1st. We enjoyed it until a few years ago when we noticed an abundance of teens (football and cheerleaders) Although none behaved anywhere near as bad as this incident! However whenever teens get in groups they are always noisy and always appear to be partying. We found that they where there between the first 2 full weekends in December. Now we go in November when its warmer
Originally Posted By smeeeko ^We usually go in December as well, and it seems there's always been some kind of issue with the Pop Warner folks.. running up and down the walkways, doing their cheers at all hours, mobbing the soda stations, having water fights in the rinse sinks, drunk parents not being anywhere around.. just general mayhem. Because they don't seem to block off a special area or building for folks they're just amok, with not a lot of supervision. I was thinking that when they were building Pop Warner they'd have the Pop Warner teams staying there but whatever it seems most of them stay at Sports and over-run other areas of the Resorts. It's hard to know which resort they are staying at. Even staying at Moderates you aren't safe from them. I don't have issue with individual Pop Warner folks but, in general they are over-running everything, under-supervised and in many cases, their parents are worse than the kids in that they leave the kids and go to Pleasure Island or whatever and come back at all hours making tons of noise and using the walkways for drinking and smoking and talking WAY LOUD. If Disney has total control of their package (which I was unaware of) I don't see why they can't block off a building or two for the cheerleaders & football teams. It's not the regular guests fault if they are paying for a 'magical' vacation at the same time as the Pop Warner sport thing.. why should the regular guest have to suffer for Pop Warner or any other large group or Conference that shows up at WDW?? One shouldn't have to stay at a Deluxe to get away from the noisy cheerleaders, or the drunken businessmen (assuming the Convention resorts ever have issues like this I've not heard). It always seems to be the Pop Warner folks and the occassional drunk guest. Again IMHO. This has got to be the worst I've heard of though. I think Disney has the right to kick anyone off its property if they are causing trouble. I agree with Denise though that they should have singled out the fighting families and let the rest of the team leave in the morning. I think if the families persue legal action, I don't think they have any legal precedent to stand on though. You pay money to go to WDW and stay in their resort as a GUEST, that doesn't give you a right to over run the place and act like a jerk.
Originally Posted By smeeeko "when they built Pop Warner.." should be "when they built Pop Century.." yikes!
Originally Posted By jkayjs I'm betting there's a lot more to this story than we've heard so far. It would of course be nice to punish only the guilty but that's not always possible. It's amazing how fast folks can move when someone's on the way to break up a fight. It's like rats abandoning a sinking ship. This may have been the final straw with these groups and there may have already been warnings. Of course this is speculation on my part but being a veteran of many stays during PW(and why I changed my stay this year) I'm pretty comfortable in expressing my thoughts. If Disney requires these folks to stay on property to have the event there they are certainly within their rights but shame on the PW organizers. There is no such thing as "no choice" in this sort of thing. PW has the choice to have the event somewhere else that is more cost effective for their group. I'm sure there is a lot of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth going on in Disney's corp offices and so there should be. If indeed this dicision was made by a night manager someone somewhere at the top has some explaining to do. No night manager should ever "have" to take this kind of action. There is always an AOC available 24/7 @ most corps that are open to the public 24/7. Written policy should dictate that only an AOC can make and enforce such a dicision. That means they need to get out of bed and come in personally. I'm not saying I necessarily think the action taken was wrong, in fact I do tend to support it (sorry Spirit) but I am saying it should only have been administered by someone with the authority to back it up. And 20 min come on folks that doesn't even make any sense. I can't even find my purse and go to the bathroom in 20 min. This is the part that makes me wonder if it was decided by someone that didn't think it through. Can you wake up, get yourself and all your belongs and get transportation in under a half hour much less get dressed somewhere in there. Well hind sight is always 20/20 and we can and probibly will beat this one to death. I bet by the time I get back next wk there will be 300+ posts.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And 20 min come on folks that doesn't even make any sense. I can't even find my purse and go to the bathroom in 20 min. This is the part that makes me wonder if it was decided by someone that didn't think it through.>> I have to assume Disney knew it would take longer, but figured whatever length of time they were given would be exceeded, so you might as well start short. My guess is that it was probably well over an hour before everyone had left. What was Disney going to do... have the sheriff drag them kicking and screaming out of their rooms?
Originally Posted By barboy There must be established protocal for things like this whereby the "post commander" at every resort knows what course of action to take and doesn't need to disturb the generals from their slumbers--- especially over something trivial. Yes trivial, in that no bombs went off, no hurricane like weather swept through leading to mass injuries---- just one single broken nose(again I hope the recipient deserved it and wasn't caught up in the incident innocently).
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains I am sure there was some kind of contract signed about rules and behavior. With the Choir trips to DL through the Heritage Festival the parents and kids alike had to sign an aknowlegdement of all the rules expected to be followed - I can say the first year the current teacher took the kids there were a few girls who brought alcohol along and they were all brought into one room and sat there waiting for a parent to drive 6 hours to DL to pick them up...There was no warning - the trip was over - Final... I was sure glad I didn't have to ride the 6 hours back - no they weren't allowed to move to another hotel or anything as they had to meet up with the Principal the next morning....
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think if the families persue legal action, I don't think they have any legal precedent to stand on though. You pay money to go to WDW and stay in their resort as a GUEST, that doesn't give you a right to over run the place and act like a jerk. >> Yeah. But what if you and your family were sound asleep in a room? That's not being 'a jerk.' And rest assured, lawyers have already been retained. Again, this could have all been avoided by having management that is qualified to handle situations like this. One thing that should have been done is have more security there to begin with since trouble is prone to break out with large groups.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And rest assured, lawyers have already been retained.>> Well OF COURSE they retained lawyers. Any time someone stubs their toe at Disney World they retain lawyers. It doesn't mean they will get anything. In the vast majority of cases people who sue Disney don't. If they do get anything, it will probalby include accepting a lifetime ban from Disney property.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm sure there is a lot of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth going on in Disney's corp offices and so there should be. If indeed this dicision was made by a night manager someone somewhere at the top has some explaining to do. No night manager should ever "have" to take this kind of action. There is always an AOC available 24/7 @ most corps that are open to the public 24/7. Written policy should dictate that only an AOC can make and enforce such a dicision. That means they need to get out of bed and come in personally. I'm not saying I necessarily think the action taken was wrong, in fact I do tend to support it (sorry Spirit) but I am saying it should only have been administered by someone with the authority to back it up.>> I don't either support or not support Disney's decision to remove the entire group. I just don't have enough facts. I do 100% NOT SUPPORT Disney rousing families out of bed that were not involved and ordering them to leave within 20 minutes or they would be removed (and presumably arrested) by OC Sheriffs Deps. I am also 100% sure that this choice, again by someone whose salary doesn't even come close to $30,000 a year, has cost Disney bigtime. Not just in media coverage/bad PR. But in lawsuits, threats, refunds etc ... and not a good idea when two of the teams are from the same place you've just announced a major resort project. I know Disney. Right now, this is all about damage control, pure and simple. And for a decision of this magnitude, the GM of the resort should have been awakened and come to the resort. At least that guy might make close to $50,000. ... Maybe ... (and before anyone comments about salaries, I am putting them in because Disney pays well below industry averages for what they believe is a premium product ... yet, this whole escapade sounds like something out of WalMart Management 101. So I guess I'm saying Disney got what it paid for and it's going to cost them many times that now.)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Well OF COURSE they retained lawyers. Any time someone stubs their toe at Disney World they retain lawyers. It doesn't mean they will get anything. In the vast majority of cases people who sue Disney don't. >> Many times Disney is wrongfully sued because it has deep pockets, but many times it gets what it has coming ... and does pay out. Again, I know a bit more about this from folks I know. <<If they do get anything, it will probalby include accepting a lifetime ban from Disney property.>> There's no such thing, Trippy.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<<<If they do get anything, it will probably include accepting a lifetime ban from Disney property.>> There's no such thing, Trippy.>> Who knows? My sister in law accepted a worker's compensation settlement from Disney that included the stipulation that she would never work for Disney Company or any of it's subsidiaries in the future. Sometimes it doesn't pay to mess with the mouse!
