Originally Posted By ecdc Anyone who's posted here more than five minutes knows I'm a liberal. So obviously I'm going to vote that way. There's people who feel differently about the role of government, international relations, etc., etc. There's plenty of legitimate room for disagreement on issues. But I truly do not understand how someone watches the Republican debate and the Democratic debate and does not see major differences well beyond policy. The Democratic candidates are sane, reasonable people interested in governing. Disagree all you like with their policies. Feel free to say you don't think Bernie's free college plan is workable. All fine. But they are all people with solid experience in actually governing and fulfilling important roles. Meanwhile, the leading Republican candidates are racist, misogynist, xenophobes. They offer no policy solutions, they offer nothing but bluster and demagoguery. It. Is. Insane. There are, of course, serious Republican candidates like Rubio and Kasich. And hopefully at the end of the day one of them will be the nominee. But watching Trump and Cruz and Carson and Fiorina lead the pack is half-hilarious, half-terrifying. If I were a conservative, I'd be so pissed that this group of people was what I was left with.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 2008 I chose to exercise my right to not vote. 2012 I voted for Gary Johnson because his ideas made the most sense to me. If he runs in 2016 my vote will lean that way again. If not then I bow out.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 2008 I chose to exercise my right to not vote. 2012 I voted for Gary Johnson because his ideas made the most sense to me. If he runs in 2016 my vote will lean that way again. If not then I bow out.
Originally Posted By ecdc I find this ideological need for purity among many voters to be disturbing. It's largely been a part of the GOP the last 5-10 years, but it's also growing in the Democratic party. I hear Bernie Sanders fans saying they'll never, ever vote for Hillary. That is just crazy to me. These same people post online about how they took an online poll to see who they agree with most, and they're with Bernie 95% of the time and Hillary 85% of teh time, and somehow Hillary just isn't good enough. Presidents need to actually govern. They need to work with Congress. Our entire system of government is predicated on compromise. They of necessity need to be more left- or right-of-center. This completely ludicrous notion that if we just elect the most radical person running (Cruz, Carson, etc.) then all of our dreams will come true is nuts.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf ecdc, I couldn't agree with you more. Watching the Democratic debate was so refreshing. There were no personal attacks and they mostly spoke about issues that matter to most people. The Republicans have come to represent almost everything that is bad about America. They want to keep the status quo on things that don't work and want to dismantle things that do work. I foresee a very one-sided election next year....
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "I hear Bernie Sanders fans saying they'll never, ever vote for Hillary. That is just crazy to me. These same people post online about how they took an online poll to see who they agree with most, and they're with Bernie 95% of the time and Hillary 85% of teh time, and somehow Hillary just isn't good enough. Presidents need to actually govern. They need to work with Congress. Our entire system of government is predicated on compromise. They of necessity need to be more left- or right-of-center. This completely ludicrous notion that if we just elect the most radical person running (Cruz, Carson, etc.) then all of our dreams will come true is nuts." Amen. We need pragmatic solutions to problems, not deep-rooted ideals that don't have a chance of ever getting implemented. As much as it pains me to say this, Hillary looks like the most pragmatic of all the candidates on either side.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I am in total agreement about the relative calm and rationality of last night's debate. We will see if things heat up as the race tightens. Being a Sanders fan, I would absolutely vote for Hillary if she was the nominee. Especially after her very admirable performance last night. Any Democrat who would not vote for the nominee, in light of what the Republicans are offering, would be a traitor to the party, and no better than the hordes of Conservatives who want to turn this country into the Christian version of Iran.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 There were some hard-core Hillary supporters in 2008 (one named "Kimber" used to post here) who swore up and down they'd never vote for Obama. They were bitter, and as with baseball or football fans, it somehow hurts more when you just barely lose in a squeaker than when you lose by a bunch. And yet, though I have no doubt some of the self-described "PUMA's" (Party Unity My A$$) refused to vote for Obama in 2008, in the end almost all of Hillary's supporters were happy to vote for him in the General. I see that again on the Democratic side, with (I hope) Sanders supporters, including many people who hadn't been much engaged in politics before, happy enough to vote for Hillary if Sanders endorses her (which I'm sure he will), or vice versa in the less likely event that their positions are reversed. Sure, there will be some purists who are saying now they would never vote for Hillary, and actually won't, but I don't think they're a large percentage. I think a bigger potential area for concern will be getting African-Americans to the polls. No question that the Democratic nominee will get 90+ percent of that vote. But Obama increased the sheer number of African Americans voting to a degree that may be hard to duplicate. HIS endorsement (and perceived enthusiasm) for the Democratic nominee will be critical. Meanwhile, on the GOP side, the purists are SO purist, I wonder if the Trump partisans would come out for the eventual nominee (assuming it's not Trump) or not. I honestly don't know - not close enough to that mindset, I guess. I worry that Trump is bringing in previously alienated people who may then decide "Well, at least <nominee> is more anti-immigrant than Hillary," and vote that way in 2016; but I think it's just as likely at this point that they really will fume "No way I vote for that RINO!" and just sit it out. I honestly don't know.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>in the end almost all of Hillary's supporters were happy to vote for him in the General.<< That's a great point. It's easy today to forget how rancorous that 2008 Dem primary got. Sanders supporters seem much more ideologically driven this time. I hear them denigrate Hillary as part of the oligarchy, etc., etc. So whereas her supporters in 2008 seemed largely disappointed that the first woman president wouldn't be elected, many Sanders supporters seem convinced that Hillary is nothing more than Rubio or Jeb! in a pantsuit. (I may be oversimplifying the differences between Obama and Clinton in '08, but that's my memory.)
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I'm hardly impartial, but it was a very different tone in last night's debate compared to the coo-coo for cocoa puffs we heard in the GOP debates. While I certainly understand the ideological differences that would make someone self-identify as a Republican usually, I can't imagine anyone of sound mind being very enthralled with the bunch running on the right this time around. Jeb! seems like the closest to an actual contender, but I don't know that he can overcome the level of crazy that has gripped the GOP voters.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck One thing I worry about with Hillary is that she is so well known, and hated by Conservatives. Her nomination would almost guarantee a massive opposition turnout. Old redneck codgers on their deathbeds would crawl on their hands and knees to vote against her.
Originally Posted By hopemax I consider myself a pretty knowledgeable person, and somebody who is usually interested in the rest of the world and the role we play, etc. But I just can not get into this election cycle. There are a lot of serious issues that need tackling, and one side seems mostly interested in erasing the progress of the 20th century, while the other side seems like they are more interested in being seen as playing fair. They've compromised themselves into the 1980's GOP, and it's still not enough. We don't need another Clinton or Bush; that means another 4 or 8 years of treading water. Sanders is the exception, but if we think the GOP are obstructionist now... Sadly, I think the only way out is burning the whole house down. Something bad will have to happen before the grownups decide they need to get into the political game, and not just leave it to the narcissists who are the only ones that can tolerate the arena. But would that even be enough? I can't help but thinking the real power brokers are happy with the status quo, and the level of "knowledge" that the current slate of candidates and Congresscritters possess.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip There are a large number of hard core conservatives in the area where I live, and most of them support either Trump or Carson. They claim they will sit this one out if someone other than Trump, Carson or Cruz is nominated. They say they will never vote for a RINO, and I tend to believe they will do what they say.
Originally Posted By Mr X What's amusing about that is that Trump is, for all intents and purposes, a huge RINO. More of a troll, really, but he's about as far from a purist as can be. They just don't want to believe it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>They say they will never vote for a RINO, and I tend to believe they will do what they say.<< Thank their god. Dems might have this one in the bag.
Originally Posted By oneyepete Just a few questions to help me better understand. If you are a proclaimed liberal does that make you a democrat? If so why not just say I 'm a democrat and sit on that side of the fence? Same with proclaiming to be conservative. Why not just say I am republican? What is your view of someone who claims to be an independent? Are they just fence sitters and really don't help much in the grand scheme of politics? I am sure this thred will bring up more questions. Thanks
Originally Posted By RoadTrip People will specify liberal or conservative because it gives a better idea of their political beliefs. For instance, I consider myself both a democrat and a moderate. There is a fairly wide range of political views represented in both major parties. Not everyone is either a Bernie Liberal Democrat or a Tea Bagger Conservative Republican.
