Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan If you consider yourself pro-life (anti-abortion), how does the affect issues like the war on terror, the death penalty and the whole question of how we use our military? If you are pro-choice on abortion, how do you square that with being opposed to the death penalty and the war? I ask because I know lots of people hold what seems like divergent opinions -- on the one hand, they want to make abortion illegal, yet they are okay with the death penalty. Or they are against the death penalty but are pro-choice on abortion. One poster here, cmpaley, is pro-life, but also against the death penalty, the war in Iraq. Agree with him or not, this at least seems to be a consistent line of reasoning: that life is sacred. There is no conflict in this line of reasoning because it boils down to protecting all life. NOTE: I'm not really looking for a debate about the death penalty, or abortion, or the war. The question is really more about how you find yourself holding viewpoints on these sorts of issues that appear to be at odds with each other. To get a glimpse at your line of reasoning, your justification for how you arrived at these viewpoints.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Or they are against the death penalty but are pro-choice on abortion.> That would be me. <The question is really more about how you find yourself holding viewpoints on these sorts of issues that appear to be at odds with each other.> To my mind, they're two separate issues and not at odds with each other. I don't believe in the death penalty because a). it's not been shown to be a deterrent, b). mistakes are made all the time and innocent people are sent to jail, including death row, c). I think it coarsens us as a society. Like the torture issue, I think it's as much about US as it is about them. Note that nearly all countries we consider civilized did away with the death penalty years ago; most of those who still have it are not ones we want to emulate. WE are better for not executing even the worst of the worst. Now if I believed that life begins at conception, I guess being pro-choice would be at odds, but I don't believe that. It's my belief that until a fetus is viable outside of the mother, it is not yet a life, and the mother is. You may disagree with that, and that's fine -there we are. I also don't believe we should force any woman to carry to term against her will, which like it or not IS what we're talking about with making abortion illegal. Yes, you can say we'd punish the doctor and not the woman, but the effect is the same - if legal abortions can not be had, we're forcing that woman to either carry to term against her will (giving birth to a child that is then, by definition, unwanted) or get an illegal and possibly unsafe abortion. Women will always be able to abort an unwanted fetus early on. Always have, always will. So the question becomes whether we try to make that "safe, legal, and rare," or unsafe, illegal, and depressingly common (by making birth control hard to come by, for instance).
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'd rather focus on prevention for both issues. That's were real change can happen, and real success.
Originally Posted By utahjosh By that I mean, long story short: -less unwanted pregnancies -less criminals. I wish society could just take care of ourselves, but it's apparent we can't.
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie I am anti-death penalty (believe me, my husband and I have had many debates on this one) and anti-war. I am squarely on the fence as far as abortion goes. I was extremely pro-choice until I became pregnant with my son. To me, he was a person long before he was born. I do feel, that abortion is wrong, BUT I also feel that my beliefs are just that, my beliefs, and should be used to govern my life. While I would never choose to have an abortion, I don't feel it is my place to make that decision for another woman. I also understand everything a woman goes through to give birth and can't force that on someone who is not willing or able to undertake that burdon. I don't have any religous beliefs or teachings that govern my decisions. Just my heart. So as such, I don't feel that my beliefs are in conflict.
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie AND, I do believe that the solution is not abortion or death penalty, but prevention, education, investing in our communities and a greater focus on mental health issues.
Originally Posted By DAR When it comes to abortion I can understand the decision for a woman when it's rape or incest. But if she want to "get rid of it" because it inconviences her well then too bad. That little person shouldn't have to be aborted. As for the death penalty. I can appreciate the argument that it's not a deterrent but there has to be at least one person who may have changed their mind about killing another human being.
Originally Posted By Elderp I am in general anti-war because most wars are purely for (imo) selfish reasons. I am anti-death penality because I'd rather see them pay (I don't see death as a punishment) and historically it has been proven not to be a deterent. I am anti-abortion with the exception of rape, incest, or if the mother would die as a result of having the baby. If you don't want the baby I believe you need to deal and then give it up for adoption. Sex is not a whatever thing.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Again, the point of this thread isn't to debate abortion, or the death penalty. It's about sharing your line of reasoning why you might be for one, and against the other. Thanks.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I'd rather focus on prevention for both issues. That's were real change can happen, and real success. >>> <<< By that I mean, long story short: -less unwanted pregnancies -less criminals. I wish society could just take care of ourselves, but it's apparent we can't. >>> Absolutely, and I agree with you. But you didn't answer Kar2oonMan's question. Given that no matter how hard we try, we're always going to a) have unwanted pregnancies, and b) have criminals, how do we deal with those situations? Are your beliefs such that you are against abortion yet for the death penalty? If so, how do you reconcile those positions?
Originally Posted By DAR With abortion you punishing an innocent life whereas the death penalty that's not always the case.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But if she want to "get rid of it" because it inconviences her well then too bad.*** Yes, too bad for you. Because that's the law of the land, and in fact it's the law in most modern nations. Like it or not, you have nothing to say when it comes to any woman's right to chose an abortion for any reason. It's simply not up to you. (and it's so typical of you to write such a snide comment like "because it inconveniences her", as though most women chose to terminate their pregnancy on a whim, because they just don't feel like having a kid right now...)
Originally Posted By Mr X ***With abortion you punishing an innocent life*** Depends on your definition of when "life" begins.
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie >>>Again, the point of this thread isn't to debate abortion, or the death penalty. It's about sharing your line of reasoning why you might be for one, and against the other. Thanks.<<< I don't think people will be able to share their reasoning without sharing their opinions. If a person does not believe that life begins at conception than their is no conflict if they are pro-choice and anti-death penalty. If a person believes that life begins at conception and is pro-life and pro-death penalty, looking at it from the view that the death penalty is a punishment, then it is a mater of punishing the guilty and not the innocent. So the reasoning is going to come down to peoples fundamental beliefs and will most likely lead to a debate of those beliefs. Such is the road to WE.
Originally Posted By DAR X read this story then tell me if this wasn't a matter of inconvenience <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/magazine/18LIVES.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=f4176027eece64e3&ex=1247889600&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1219501070-UCE38IG8v9Tw5tXjrDGxeg" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07...XjrDGxeg</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X Doesn't matter if it was, there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. She has the right to have the procedure by law (a law that, apparently, you want overturned?). And you could find a story to highlight anything, that doesn't mean it's common. Anyway I agree that she came off as rather blase about the whole thing. But that doesn't mean she really was...only she knows how she felt before getting the procedure.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't think people will be able to share their reasoning without sharing their opinions. << I hear ya. I was just hoping that the focus was less on debating the issues and more on how one reconciles seemingly conflicted positions. I probably should have stated the original question in a more generic way. using something other than abortion or the death penalty as examples.
Originally Posted By ecdc I'm very much in line with Dabob2's thinking. I don't believe that life begins at conception by a long shot, so there's really nothing, in my mind, to reconcile. An abortion isn't a death; the death penalty is. That said, I'm not entirely callous to the concept of a fetus and the idea of abortion. I do understand that it has the potential to grow into a life. I do appreciate that there are couples desperate to adopt (and have a couple of close friends going through that process right now). Ironically, I agree with Josh on this: >>I'd rather focus on prevention for both issues. That's were real change can happen, and real success.<< Being pro-choice does not make one "pro-abortion" - despite how extreme conservatives attempt to paint the issue (as they've label Obama "pro-abortion" lately). Here's some facts: U.S. teenagers are very much in the same boat as their European counterparts as far as sexual activity goes. U.S. teens have as much sex as European teens. However, U.S. teens are four more times as likely to get pregnant. They're much more likely to have an abortion. So what's the solution to this problem? Is it religious platitudes about "life" and preserving it in any form? Is it abstinence only programs? Or is it information and education, which is what European teens receive. (Sorry if that's debating the issues, too much, Kar2oonMan).
Originally Posted By FaMulan I am firmly of the opinion that Women's Reproductive Health Care issues are solely in the hands of each individual woman and her doctor and mate, period, end of story. I believe that, at times, war can be a necessary evil, though I would much rather the world be at peace. But man's natural state seems to be war. I strongly believe that some crimes need to met with an ultimate penalty and that is not the loss of freedom. To me, they are three seperate issues and I reconcile each within myself on an individual basis.
Originally Posted By mawnck "With abortion you punishing an innocent life whereas the death penalty that's not always the case." I love the way that second part is phrased ... ;-)
