Originally Posted By X-san I have fond memories of being a proud American back in my youth, confident in the fact that we would boldly fight against the forces of evil in this world, like China and Russia for example. <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05/27/human.rights.report/index.html" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO...dex.html</a> Most interesting is the fact that in the attached poll over 70% of the respondents agreed that America does belong on that list right alongside China and Russia. The poll seems to have disappeared though. Must be a problem with my browser or something.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Sadly X, it has been a long tie ago, certainly before you and I were born. Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Reaganomics and the 2nd Cold War, and Bush Jr have all made America more of a liability on the international arena. Clinton helped America enormously, sadly, too many puritanicals were more concerned with human labido issues than international foreign policy. It happens in every empire, after ascendancy comes the decline. And the Us sadly is in decline. SO sad for this proud american. Studying international relations in another country was a huge eye opener, and the little post graduate american spirit I had was ripped away from in in the farse of 2000, further aided by the HUGE loss of compassionate advantage after 9/11. America of today scares me, and saddens me even more.
Originally Posted By X-san Agreed. Although I would have to say aside from Vietnam I don't think the other issues were really shame-worthy (well, maybe Reaganomics lol). At least, I'd argue there are two sides to those stories to be sure. The 2nd Cold War? Am I missing something? In any case, yeah the situation is pretty shameful and horrible now...I agree with your assessment that we're looking at a society in decline. It's so weird and sad to be on the outside looking in, it's so obvious when you actually join the whole world and take a look at what America has become. Being the eternal optimist, I'm really hoping for some positive steps back in the right direction over the next 10 years. However, if America is stupid enough to elect McCain I feel confident that will be the final nail in the coffin.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad What I think is sad is the total lack of appreciation our younger generation and the Libs seem to have for ... No I need to wait until I get home to post. This iPhone isn't gonna cut for this post.
Originally Posted By X-san ***What I think is sad is the total lack of appreciation our younger generation and the Libs seem to have for ...*** Wait, wait! Lemme guess... Lack of appreciation for, lack of appreciation for, hmmm... Torture!? Indefinite confinement? Widespread human rights violations in the name of freedom? Oh, oh...I'm SURE I can guess this one, just give me a minute more! The Complete and Utter Hubris of America Today!!?? There. I think I nailed it. No need to reply further, DVC. I already took care of it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip A country doesn't go down the crapper in seven years. I think you will see a big change in how the US is perceived once Dubya is gone. Sorry Dave, but I just don't care a whole lot what the international community thinks of the United States. The fact that someone would consider how we handled the Cuban missile crisis as a liability shows the distorted view you folks across the pond hold of the US. Of course you aren't alone in that; I think many people in the US have a distorted view of France, so I guess we are equal. I do think at times some of the dislike is rooted in jealousy over our power. Europe may not like our saber rattling, but you know who they will come running to when a newly powerful Russia decides to make itself known once again in Eastern Europe.
Originally Posted By X-san ***I just don't care a whole lot what the international community thinks of the United States.*** That sort of attitude from the White House is, I believe, pretty much what got us into this mess. Sure, we could nuke the world if we wanted to...but short of that, there is this issue of world opinion and diplomacy that seems pretty important to me. (not that I would bow, personally, to world opinion if I felt it was unjustified...but I don't)
Originally Posted By DAR First of all we're still the good guys. That we're the one's willing to to lead the fight against oppression puts us ahead of any other country. Who's always the first to offer assistance to other countries? That would be the U.S.. Are we perfect? Of course not there's plenty that we need to fix. But you will never change my mind that we aren't the best.
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<***I just don't care a whole lot what the international community thinks of the United States.*** That sort of attitude from the White House is, I believe, pretty much what got us into this mess.>> Well... there is a difference. A president is in a position to change that perception, I am not. So I’m not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about it. Also... foreign leaders generally like the US a whole lot more than the average foreign citizen does. And part of that is due to views of the US that are based more on myth than reality. Kind of like a fair percentage of Americans think "France sucks". Does France do a whole lot to try to change that perception? No they do not. Why should they? It's not reality. By the way... in my opinion the "mediocre moron bit" was really uncalled for. Any arguments you make go right down the tube when you resort to name-calling.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo There is no such thing as best, just different. You guys can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but America is not what it used to be. Mr X, World Disney and I are all US ex pats, and yet I feel we have similar world views. People in the US are fed propaganda (and elsewhere too) and buy it hook, line and sinker. There is much there is great about the US, just as there is much to be improved. But the reality is that the US is getting poorer, less literate, and have been a liability to international security. The US does help out other nations, but often for a price. And there is no doubt that the US is powerful because it is big and has natural resources. But there are many things about the rest of the world that is great too. I have seen about 2/3's of the world. A number of people that carry on in a jingoistic manner have seen maybe Mexico or Canada, or the Caribbean, maybe we 2 week tour of 14 countries in Europe. Not exactly a well heeled view. And sorry Roadtrip, having been in Europe for some time, and visiting friends and family in the US in 2000, 2002, 2006 and 2008, I have seen that under the Bush administration, America is a lot LOT worse in my estimation.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo ***I just don't care a whole lot what the international community thinks of the United States.*** Ok, but what about the growing homeless numbers, those without medical, those trying to buy gas, those in New Orleans that have received little support, those that have been hauled away and tortured with little evidence, those that no longer have as much privacy as they used to, those who are losing their primary and secondary industry jobs due to lack of investment? Do you care what they think?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Sorry Dave, but I just don't care a whole lot what the international community thinks of the United States. The fact that someone would consider how we handled the Cuban missile crisis as a liability shows the distorted view you folks across the pond hold of the US. <<< FWIW, I think this is where the perceptions start. But with Panama, the Contras, the Star Wars programme, etc. these started to plant the seeds of doubt. Add in the concern about the McDonaldisation of society, the US's reluctance to sign up to the Kyoto accord re the environment, the UN charter on Human Rights, and even UNESCO's international cultural agreements. It is somewhat understandable. Also the violence and gang culture of urban America and the impact on other countries. All backed up by the we're number 1 arguement, when really the US would benefit from a "we're really good at......we would like to share our knowledge, but also learn from yours ethos. This is where UAE and Japan have performed very well.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo One last thing, you cannot have your cake and eat it. If the US wants to be a superpower, then lead by example. If the US does not, then step aside and stop this ludicrous we're number one mantra. I am a proud American. I demonstrate this not by wearing a US flag pin, but by trying to point out how things can improve. But I have transcended petty nationalism. I view myself as a citizen of the world. I would love to see a United Federation. I know I will never see it in my lifetime, but I can still work towards being a part of that solution.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip You are taking the problems of major urban areas in the United States and extrapolating that to the rest of the country. That is understandable. When you come to the United States you visit NYC, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc. You never get around to visiting Omaha, Nebraska or Des Moines, Iowa. And I can assure that the situation in those mid-size cities (200,000-400,000 population) is far different from what you see in Los Angeles. In Los Angeles you not only have the poverty problems typical of large urban areas (I'm pretty sure London has them too), but the problems associated with both legal and illegal immigration. Overall poverty in the United States has been reduced almost 50% since 1959. Source: <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov13.html" target="_blank">http://www.census.gov/hhes/www...v13.html</a>
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But roadtrip - we went to places like Half Moon Bay, Monterey, San Louis Obispo, San Juan Batista, Santa Barbara, San Diego, Carlesbad, Newport Beach, as well as San Francisco and LA. I think those are pretty big examples.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The justice department just released a comprehensive report on american complicity in state-sanctioned torture. Actual offical US policy, generated by top american officials, including the president, HIS justice dept., and secretary of defence. Systematic abuse, humiliation, and flat out torture of prisoners. This has been done deliberately and methodically, in iraq, in afghanistan, in guantanamo, and who knows where else. It's been done in our names by our representatives, in the face of our protests and outrage against it. Who's proud of that? Who thinks we're "the good guys"?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I try to compare like with like - San Francisco with London, and Santa Barbara with Brighton. there is a widening gap. It pains me as I am also disatisfied with things in the UK. we came back home partially to see if it were a better place to raise our children. We came to the conclusion that no it is not (in our view).
Originally Posted By X-san ***This has been done deliberately and methodically, in iraq, in afghanistan, in guantanamo, and who knows where else. It's been done in our names by our representatives, in the face of our protests and outrage against it.*** Exactly the reason that Amnesty is calling America out. Everyone knows it at this point, noone is denying it. The only REAL question is who's okay with it. ***Who's proud of that? Who thinks we're "the good guys"?*** You're sure to get plenty of replies explaining how we're not talking about mistreating "humans", only evil turbanheads who truly deserve it.
Originally Posted By gadzuux They don't deserve basic habeus corpus or even human rights either. They'll never have a hearing of their charges, never get to face their accusers, never be convicted of anything. They'll be imprisoned and mistreated and even tortured - by us - americans - possibly forever, with no recourse. Our government says they're guilty and that's all we need to know. After all, they would never lie to us, would they?
