Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< My wife works a public library. When people get a library card they have to show ID, and she tells me that it's often a concealed carry permit that they show her. According to the Library director, the local PD estimates that there are usually a few armed people in the library at any given time. >>> I was once in a Barnes & Noble when there was a booksigning by Wayne LaPierre. Based on the look of the crowd and the various fanny packs etc that many were wearing, it would not surprise me if there were 100 guns in that bookstore that night.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder ".. but if a guy does carry, and finds himself in a situation where he might make a difference, well, isn't that the whole point of concealed carry?" Unless he's a cop and has training, then well, you're asking the wrong guy, because I absolutely do not see the point where anyone needs a permit to carry a concealed weapon if they're not law enforcement.
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly. We start at point C in this country: guns are good and people should have them. So it becomes, "Well he had the gun, what was he supposed to do?" The correct answer is NOT BE WANDERING AROUND WITH A FREAKING GUN! He didn't need a gun. He should not have been out with a gun in public. The end.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I have several coworkers who carry concealed. They have excellent training, and I have no fear being around them or even around my family. They are not careless, and they are intelligent.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Based on the look of the crowd and the various fanny packs etc that many were wearing, it would not surprise me if there were 100 guns in that bookstore that night. I bet nobody tried anything funny that night.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>They have excellent training<< How do you know? >>They are not careless, and they are intelligent.<< I suspect the man who was killed in Las Vegas was not careless or unintelligent either. It does not change one very simple fact: he should not have been walking around with a gun. None of your coworkers, unless they are law enforcement, should walk around carrying a gun. No matter how well-intentioned they might be, the odds are significantly higher that they (or you) will be the victim of an accident or violent incident than they will save the day. It's really as simple as that.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I have several coworkers who carry concealed. They have excellent training, and I have no fear being around them or even around my family. They are not careless, and they are intelligent." God fearing men with trust in Jesus feel the need to carry guns? If it's their time, it's their time. And training in what? At a shooting range? Have they been trained in how to disarm and render impotent armed, emotional men and women hell bent on murdering anyone in theIr path? At a minimum, have they been through a police academy? Hostage crisis management and negotiation? A military deployment that involved close armed combat? How to proceed if they've been shot but can still move and act?
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly. That's why I asked. I assume "excellent training" means "hunter safety classes."
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I have several coworkers who carry concealed. They have excellent training, and I have no fear being around them or even around my family. They are not careless, and they are intelligent." josh, that's just nonsense. Are they carrying at work? What do you do for a living that they need to carry? You ought to be scared out of your gourd if they are armed at work. That's ridiculous. Unless there's someone here on these boards anymore (WilliamK99 comes to mind but he seems to be gone for good) who is either active military who has been deployed in active combat, and/or is a police officer, I probably come closest to having the most experience confronting people and taking them down, and I've already made it pretty clear where I would draw the line. There's just no point to carry a concealed weapon unless you've been FULLY trained for all possibilities.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I don't expect everyone to be an armed crusader, but if a guy does carry, and finds himself in a situation where he might make a difference, well, isn't that the whole point of concealed carry?<< My understanding (and no, I don't carry a gun) is that most people have concealed carry permits to protect themselves, and not to play White Knight.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I bet nobody tried anything funny that night.<< If a couple of nutters (who were on a suicide mission) were willing to take on trained and armed cops, what makes you think they wouldn't have charged into that book signing, assault rifles blazing? They would have mowed everyone down before anyone would have had a chance to pull their gun out and fire back. Heck, it would have been pure pandemonium and any White Knights who managed to fire back would have been more likely to shoot a bystander by accident than the assailants.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I have several coworkers who carry concealed. They have excellent training >>> As SPPH alluded to, training in what? What if there was a similar situation to the Las Vegas incident but where when the concealed carry holder confronted the criminal, the criminal dropped his gun (maybe because he's out of ammunition but nobody else knows this) and charges the citizen? What's the citizen going to do then when split-second reactions are critical? The most likely thing is to shoot the now-unarmed assailant who may just be crazy and no longer a danger to anybody. Or, he may not shoot and end up being disarmed, giving the bad guy a new gun to use. That's one of many scenarios that police officers are trained and equipped to handle and isn't covered in "gun safety" classes.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I don't expect everyone to be an armed crusader, but if a guy does carry, and finds himself in a situation where he might make a difference, well, isn't that the whole point of concealed carry? >>> I thought the whole point of concealed carry was so that you could provide protection for yourself and your loved ones, and not provide "hero" public services to the community at large. If someone observed someone actually shooting people, then that would be one thing, but that was not the situation here.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "My understanding (and no, I don't carry a gun) is that most people have concealed carry permits to protect themselves, and not to play White Knight." But from what? In my entire life, all 56 years plus of it, in everywhere I've ever been, everything I ever did, I've never once wished I had a gun.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo >>I bet nobody tried anything funny that night.<< I bet nobody every tries anything funny at that Barnes & Noble. But that night seems to be the most likely time for something funny to happen. I know I'd feel the least safe going on that night.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>But from what? In my entire life, all 56 years plus of it, in everywhere I've ever been, everything I ever did, I've never once wished I had a gun.<< Agreed, it's irrational paranoia. But my point was that people have Concealed Carry Permits to protect themselves, even if it's from imaginary bogeymen. Some, like George Zimmerman, fancy themselves to be superheroes. The Vegas vigilante wasn't so lucky.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I bet nobody every tries anything funny at that Barnes & Noble. But that night seems to be the most likely time for something funny to happen. I know I'd feel the least safe going on that night.<< Agreed, all it would have taken was a single nutjob and it would have been a bloodbath, with panic stricken store patrons firing indiscriminately, with countless bystanders caught in the cross fire. Think about it. You're standing in line with your book, waiting for an autograph. You hear gunfire and turn around, your Beretta unlock and ready for action in your hand. You see several people brandishing guns. Who do you shoot?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder And even if you have training, when the time comes to use it, you often freeze. Reminds me of a story. At the Robert Kennedy shooting in the kitchen of the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, Sirhan Sirhan appeared from around a kitchen counter, approached RFK, and began to shoot. An armed security guard, assigned to the Kennedy party, drew his weapon in an admitted panic and began shooting in the general direction of Sirhan. Sirhan stopped shooting when he was tackled by Rosey Grier and Rafer Johnson, among others. Kennedy was mortally wounded, dying the next day. LAPD officers responded, detectives came out, and all the bullet holes were noted that were in door jambs, ceiling tiles and walls. Uniformed LAPD were assigned to guard the crime scene and they were unexpectedly relieved during the night by Secret Service and FBI, who superseded their authority. When LAPD returned later that morning, all the ceiling tiles, door jambs and sections of wall that had holes from a gun a different caliber than Sirhan's were gone. The Feds insisted no such holes ever existed but LAPD knew better. They knew from the crime scene, Kennedy's wounds and hospital information that Sirhan's gun didn't kill Kennedy, another gun fired the fatal shot. I imagine the point to the story is that even personnel with a modicum of training, even as primitive as it might have been in 1968, can lose control when the chips are down and something horrible can happen. Not everyone needs to have a gun.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <>>They have excellent training<< <How do you know?> They've explained to me the training they have received. It's extensive. < None of your coworkers, unless they are law enforcement, should walk around carrying a gun.> You are entitled to that opinion. They are entitled to carry a gun.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I assume "excellent training" means "hunter safety classes."> You would assume incorrectly.
