Originally Posted By Mr X robably a millionth of a degree, how any non-white person traveling though Arizona might feel. I was riding my bicycle. Legally. Not bothering anyone, not breaking any laws. And I passed by a couple of cops staked out on their moterbikes. As I passed by and turned the corner, I had a funny feeling. I heard the motor coming up behind me and I knew I was being followed (for no valid reason). I looked back, saw the cop, and stopped. He "kindly" asked me how I was (In English), and then proceeded to question me in Japanese. I told him I can't speak Japanese (in English), and he promptly radioed for help. In the meantime, he asked me several questions in Japanese (I attempted to "play dumb", since if I admitted I could speak SOME Japanese, that would've been a license for him to question me in Japanese (I'm conversational, but hardly fluent). After his partner arrived (an officer who spoke a modicum of English, but very broken and hardly suitable for questioning), I was asked where I'd bought my bicycle...to back up a bit, I was first and foremost asked for my papers (which I produced). Anyway, they asked where I'd bought my bike (I explained, in English, that I'd bought it nearby). Then they asked me what my wife's name was (which is also "on my papers", so they already knew but they asked me to confirm several times anyway). At this point, I asked them why, exactly, I had been detained. They told me it was because they were checking for stolen bikes. Why they selected ME, in particular, is puzzling (it's Japanese people who are known to steal bicycles by and large, so why go after the foreigners?). I was also asked what I do for a living (why do they need to know THAT?). The final straw (and I was pressed for time, otherwise I'd have challenged them at every point as to the legality of what they were doing), was when the English speaker asked me "Can you give me your phone number, please?". I replied "Am I required to do so?". He didn't understand me, so I said "MUST I give you my phone number, by law?", and he said "Please?", and I said "I don't want to", and then he backed off, saying "sorry. sorry.". In the meantime they'd radioed in my bike serial numbers or whatever, and when they got word back from the office, they said "you can go". All in all, a very uncomfortable experience for a guy just trying to go along doing nothing wrong. And I didn't feel particularly put out, by any means. But I can certainly imagine this sort of "stop and check" deal can get very wrong very fast (I only wished I'd pressed them a bit further, since I'm well aware that Japan has less legal obligation to treat people fairly so I honestly want to know how far it could go HERE in order to understand how far it could go in America given similar circumstances. The cops were very polite and I can hardly put this into the "bad experience" category, but still...I was stopped for no reason while I was doing nothing wrong, and why should that be okay?
Originally Posted By Mr X Ugh...copy paste from another forum FAIL! Kindly insert THIS to above... "So, I thought I'd convey this story (it's happened many times over the years) because in a sort of visceral way I felt, to probably a millionth of a degree..." Crappy way to begin a topic, but in any case it DID bug me (enough so that I wrote about it not only here but elsewhere too!). Thoughts?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I am sorry to hear that X. I hate these sort of things. Often we get treated badly when we travel by border controls. In Europe I get a hard time and in the US they treat Sarah like dirt sometimes. I do get frightened about the xenophobia and immigration issues. Heck, in college I was frightened to be around anyone with drugs in case I was implicated and deported. It is getting to the point where I am thinking about applying for duel nationality and stumping up the $2500 for the pleasure. What annoys me is borders are largely arbitrary. I understand some of the implications, but a liberal, the annoy the hell out of me. Reminds me of the time as a teenager, I was sat on the hood of my dad's car talking to a friend. The police came buy and told me to get off. I politely said, no, it was my Dad's car, and he was fine with me on it. Because I had an American accent, they instisted on seeing my parents, and my passport. I know that might seem naughtier than just riding a bike, but it was unnerving to me. Heck, we only moved to the UK because after 9 years of a long distance relationship and no chance of getting my step dad a green card because he was a musician, we moved over here.
Originally Posted By Labuda Wow, well, I'm glad you didn't press it harder, X - would suck if you were stuck in a Japanese prison! Also, wow, how long have you lived in Japan, anyway?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I guess I'd have to ask you both if the treatment of you was significant enough to warrant outrage? Should the ACLU be coming to your defense? Obviously this ties into what is going on in Arizona and gets to the question as to what is an acceptable way to deal with a brugeoning illegal immigration problem. If some legal citizens are stopped and put out for a period of time in the process of stopping and moving out those here illegally is it "worth it"? Certainly not to the individuals wrongly stopped. But, the society as a whole? I don't know the answer. Just posing the question.
Originally Posted By Labuda Excellent point, wahoo. I certainly hope that the first legal US citizen harassed because of this AZ law gets in touch with the ACLU.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I guess I'd have to ask you both if the treatment of you was significant enough to warrant outrage? Should the ACLU be coming to your defense? >>> Since the A in ACLU stands for American, and Mr X's encounter did not involve American officials, my guess would be "probably not." <<< If some legal citizens are stopped and put out for a period of time in the process of stopping and moving out those here illegally is it "worth it"? Certainly not to the individuals wrongly stopped. But, the society as a whole? >>> That question could be asked about a great many other things: what about the right be secure in one's person, papers, and effects against warrantless search and seizure? If a particular group was routinely targeted by police because of their ethnicity for warrantless searches of their homes, would that be okay as long as it served the greater good?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I certainly hope that the first legal US citizen harassed because of this AZ law gets in touch with the ACLU. >>> The ACLU is already hard at work to make sure there isn't even the first citizen harassed by this law, by taking AZ to court to prevent the law from taking effect.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I know what the ACLU stands for Super...I was just inquiring of X how outraged he felt over the experience. I've been questioned by the FBI before because my name was similar to someone they were looking for. I had two agents in my home for an hour even though I knew in 30 seconds it was obviously a case of mistaken identity. But, it wasn't something that got me outraged or panicked because I knew I had done nothing wrong. If their questioning me helped them to ultimately get to the bad guy...well...I'm ok with that. I don't presume to know how X or dave felt about their experiences. I'm just asking the question.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo For me, it was a scary reminder of not fitting in anywhere anymore. I am not European, and I am no longer fully American. Being displaced is really quite interesting. But I do sometimes feel like I followed the White Rabbit.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I know what the ACLU stands for Super >>> I wasn't sure that you did, since you were the one that asked if the ACLU should come to Mr X's defense.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Dude, it was rhetorical. Of course the implication was that I wanted to know how egregious he felt it was. I fully expect he could have made use of the JCLU if had been so inclined.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But, it wasn't something that got me outraged or panicked because I knew I had done nothing wrong. If their questioning me helped them to ultimately get to the bad guy...well...I'm ok with that.<< There's been plenty of other people in your situation who've felt exactly the same way, only to find themselves in handcuffs and behind bars for a while. In the worst situations, those innocent people have been convicted and imprisoned until new evidence freed them. Which of course means plenty others of innocent people have served full terms without the luxury of evidence that later releases them. I'm sure the majority of the time, your situation is the norm. But there are far too frequent cases of the nightmare scenario above taking place. I long ago made up my mind that if I'm ever questioned by the police about anything other than a routine traffic stop, I'll invoke my right of silence and say nothing without a lawyer. It's a shame that it has to be that way, since like you, I'd like to just help them do a very difficult job and catch the people they're looking for. But unfortunately, I do not trust them. They've spent too much time around the dregs of society, and they often think everyone is guilty.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I was falsely arrested once. The cops were SURE I was guilty. I was one 75 year old pair of eyes' false ID away from jail. And the old lady was brought in a car--NOT all that close for eyes that old-- and I could hear the cop on the radio saying "she says that's him? Knew it." As I'm freaking out, then I hear him say "wait. The guy she saw didn't have a beard? You sure?". (He sounded quite disappointed that it wasn't me after all.) So the only thing that saved me from jail (for flashing, by the way!) in at least the short term, and quite possibly the long term if this lady had been convinced it was me, was the fact that I had a beard at that time. The thing is, eventually they caught the right guy and he did kinda look like me, so a false positive ID was a distinct possibility but for my beard.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>(He sounded quite disappointed that it wasn't me after all.)<< Yeah, been there. When the cops didn't find what they were looking for on me, it was just proof that I was an even worse guy because I'd covered my tracks oh so carefully. Couldn't possibly be that I'd done nothing wrong. Cops are human too. They fall into work routines, they get lazy, they take short-cuts, etc. And they're paid a pittance for a tough job. Their work is important and should be relatively error-free, but you get what you pay for. Same goes for our teachers.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So the only thing that saved me from jail (for flashing, by the way!) in at least the short term, and quite possibly the long term if this lady had been convinced it was me, was the fact that I had a beard at that time.<< Here's the police sketch of the guy.... <a href="http://andheblogs.andyrush.net/wp-content/photos/woolywilly.jpg" target="_blank">http://andheblogs.andyrush.net...illy.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I was just inquiring of X how outraged he felt over the experience*** Not outraged at all, since I'm very familiar with Japan and the procedures here and my attitude is "when in Rome". It just made me think about how such a thing might go down in America where it is supposedly "free".
Originally Posted By Mr X ***For me, it was a scary reminder of not fitting in anywhere anymore*** That must be horribly disquieting, Dave! In my case, if I ever ran into real trouble (and there's no reason that I would, but you never know), I would be contacting the American consulate for sure!
