Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Well, this is it. You may have heard thru the LP grapevine that a certain Spirit recently visited the TDR for the first (but most definitely not only) time and now has visited every Disney theme park in the world (which means they had better start some digging in Shanghai soon!) Naturally, he has some strong opinions on the place and how it compares to his 'home' resort (good, old, stale WDW!) Since the Spirit isn't traditional, a traditional trip report was out of the question, but I hope this answers many questions and provokes thought and discussion. I think the best place to start is to simply state some myths and the reality and compare them to WDW. Myth: TDR is perfect. Reality: Nothing is perfect and these parks are not that. They have chipped paint, burned out lightbulbs and crappy merchandise. BUT ... they are maintained to a level that truly makes WDW's parks seem closer to Six Flags/regional park level ... and that crappy merchandise is at least unique to that resort and won't be found anywhere else. Myth: You can't see anything at TDR as it is always overrun by crazy Duffy-loving locals who create five-hour waits for attractions like Pooh's Hunny Hunt or Monsters: Ride and Go Seek. Reality: Much like WDW, where I'll often visit on a day that really isn't that busy only to see someone there that same day post a 'it was so packed etc' thread on a fan forum, TDR can be quite busy ... and still be managable. In four weekday visits (two days each in TDL and TDS), this Spirit encountered only one day that was especially busy (a Monday at TDL) and had a day at TDS (a Thursday with perfect weather) that was incredibly slow. In four days, Spirit's longest wait was 35 minutes for a Jungle Cruise that was entertaining, but lacked a translator he could have used! Most waits were at most 15-20 minutes while utilizing FP for the most popular attractions. Longest waits observed: 120 minutes for Monsters and 110 minutes for Buzz Lightyear. Myth: TDR show quality in attractions is almost perfect. Reality: Almost perfect isn't doing it justice. Again, comparing it to WDW is just beyond laughable. One company obviously cares that every detail, every small seemingly insignificant effect is working every day whether on an old dark ride like Peter Pan's Flight or a new state-of-the-art version of ToT. You truly can't believe the quality of everything from AAs to sound to lighting on EVERY attraction until you experience it. Believe me, I looked to see if I could find something not working and there wasn't anything to find. I would say imagine a new WDW attraction and then imagine that every attraction at each park looked like that. Oops, one problem. How many WDW attractions have show effects that don't work right from Day 1? A slice of Everest anyone? Do you realize that many in operations at WDW's parks don't even know many of the effects aren't working because they haven't worked for so many not days, not weeks, not months, but YEARS OR DECADES? I understand some folks will say 'I don't care about what isn't working, only what is' and my only response would be you have no idea what you are missing. To experience attractions that opened in 1983 look like they debutted yesterday is truly a wonder. Myth: TDL is better than MK in every aspect. Reality: That's not the case at all. There are things (you did see the 's' at the end, right?) that are better at the old, tired, stale MK. They aren't likely what you think, though. What's better in O-Town? Glad you asked ... Food for one. TDL has more variety, but it has smaller portions (tiny in some cases by American standards) at higher price points (no the weakness in the USD certainly doesn't help). What you need after eating would be another. Restrooms. We take them for granted, but as anyone (but usually Leo) will tell you, they can be a most magical part of a Disney parks visit. And TDL AND TDS have the worst restrooms of ALL Disney resorts around the world. They are almost all universally small (seeing a line of about 70 women waiting at the Tomorrowland Terrace facilities one night around 8 p.m. made me cringe at what happens when the parks are packed), they have the worst soap in the Disney theme park empire, they have no paper towels and one or two hand dryers (and not the airblades either). That likely means hygiene issues and guarantees people walking around with wet hands. I don't get this ... maybe it's something lost in translation, but I don't think so. OK, you say, food and restrooms are important Spirit but those aren't why people go to the parks to begin with. What about the park? Is there anything else that MK does better than TDL? Yes. While MK has been watered down over the years or Walmarted as someone I know and love and worship every day likes to say, the lands still flow into each other in almost cinematic fashion. Walk from Fantasyland to Liberty Square or Adventureland to Frontierland and notice how the transitions work. Well, TDL simply doesn't have them. When the OLC decided it wanted to build a park on Tokyo Bay in the mid-late 1970s, it is well known that officials planned the park by literally picking and choosing aspects of DL and the MK that they wanted. Almost like you'd order from a menu, they picked and they chose. I'm sure that back in the 80s, it worked better than now because the park wasn't as developed (two lands have been added, attractions/dining/retail added and others replaced too), but now many things are just jarring. A 1970s MK StarJets complex with a 1990s Toontown behind it and an immersive Pooh's Hunny Hunt next to it. A 1970s MK Dumbo spinner across from a FLA Mansion (with halls decked by Jack) next to the best/most complete Critter Country anywhere. I could (and later will) go on ... but the point is TDL has a thrown together feeling you can't shake or miss (btw, this is the polar opposite to how TDS feels, but we'll get to that) because that's how it was developed. So, does that mean (gulp) that MK has better attractions than TDL? (see next myth). Myth: TDR's attractions blow all WDW versions out of the water. Reality: Um, not just out of the water, but out of every sea on earth and off the planet as well. And we'll get to that a bit more in the next novel-sized chapter.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I can't wait for the next installment. And a shameless plug, for those of you wanting more, there are several threads full of comments over in the TDR section of the boards that have been giving me great reading for weeks now. Go check them out!
Originally Posted By Mr X ＊＊＊Food for one. TDL has more variety, but it has smaller portions (tiny in some cases by American standards) at higher price points (no the weakness in the USD certainly doesn't help).＊＊＊ I would argue that the overall quality is also better in Tokyo...though you are certainly correct on the portions and the prices (the prices haven't changed much over the years though, so had you visited when the yen was around 115 to the dollar or better, it'd have seemed more of a bargain and been cheaper than WDW by a bit as well (though still pretty skimpy portions wise). I do realize you had some pizza issues, but again talking overall I think the park is pretty consistent (I like DisneySea dining much more though, and consider it the very best park in the world (that I've been to anyway) for food with Epcot in a close second place).
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer Very interesting. Don't like the sound of the transitions in TDL... Sounds very cheap, honestly. Are there any barriers to prevent land leaking into land, or is it just turn a corner and that's it? >>> To experience attractions that opened in 1983 look like they debutted yesterday is truly a wonder.<<< While the rest of our MK may be suffering, I have to say that our PotC and HM are kept up pretty well. The latter since it's refurb, and the former since a few weeks ago. I've never seen it looking better. (Like a publicity photo, as I keep gushing...) Very shocked about the restrooms...NO QUAIL!??!?! But not shocked about food, portions are smaller as it's a cultural thing. Super-sizing is only a American... er.. innovation? Speaking of food, what's for eating this weekend? Can't wait to hear about TDS...
Originally Posted By GOB Nice report. I'm glad to hear that there's a company out there that "gets" theme parks. Hey Spirit, do you have one of these kinds of posts for Disneyland Paris? I may be heading there for a day next year.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros What exactly were you pizza issues? I managed to have a pizza issue (or more likely a translation issue) on my visit to TDS several years ago. I ordered the spaghetti bolonese at Zambini Brothers, and ended up with the salmon and potato pizza. It was well made and tasty and all, but I had just spent the last hour wandering the park looking for something that I really wanted. I bypassed several places with the pizza, since I was really in the mood for pasta, but it is what it is. I checked the reciept, and it looked like the charged me for the pizza, so I didn't say anything about it. Was it something to do more with the general Japanese take on pizza? The fried egg in the middle and corn as a topping don't really do it for me, but it's not really TDR's fault for giving the locals what they like...
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Are there any barriers to prevent land leaking into land, or is it just turn a corner and that's it?*** Corner? What corner?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Nice report. I'm glad to hear that there's a company out there that "gets" theme parks.<<< I want OLC to be come the FLC.... Sigh.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> Corner? What corner?<<< It's THAT BAD!? I KNEW WDW WAS BETTER. KNEW IT.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Nothing beats Epcot during Food & Wine. But, I think in its regular mode, I like TDS's food better as well. It's not literally the "food from around the world, served by people from each country" that Epcot is, but then again, that's the whole point of World Showcase and that aspect is unique to Epcot. At TDS, the food at all levels has a wide variety. The popcorn variety is infamous, but not as much talked about but more significant (and delicious!) is the wide variety of snack items available from permanent kiosks (I don't know if they're considered ODV or not). You're not limited to Mickey-head ice cream sandwiches, churros, and giant pretzels - in fact, I'm not sure that any of those are available at all at TDS. Rather, each vending location has its own unique offering. And I can't think of any that are "weird Japanese stuff" like something with tentacles. And Mr X showed me a secret: don't be shy about taking your snack purchase to a nearby counter service restaurant and taking advantage of the condiment bar - they may have just the sauce needed to make the snack even better. Plus, there are something like 6+ counter service restaurants, at least 2 table service restaurants, and an all-you-can-eat (called a "Viking" in Japanese) buffet, with a good variety of food between them.
Originally Posted By Mr X There is a particular location from which you can see the following all in one glance...Country Bears, Thunder Mountain, the Riverboat and Train, as well as Peter Pan's flight and Dumbo, and within a few paces you can also see Snow White's Grotto and the Castle (with the Country Bears still in view. Spirit brings up a great point about the Starjets/Toontown/Fantasyland mess (yup, also all visible in a single glance, don't even have to turn around but if you do you'll also see Space Mountain). It's pretty nasty, when you think about it. You can tell the imaginers had their hearts and minds (and creativity) in Orlando at that point in history.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I can't wait for the next installment.>> Thanks. May do a shortened version tonight (have written much more, but want these things to make some sense -- as opposed to what I usually write!) ;-) <<And a shameless plug, for those of you wanting more, there are several threads full of comments over in the TDR section of the boards that have been giving me great reading for weeks now. Go check them out!>> Yeah, I tried my best to get some action down there, but it's tough. Some folks just won't read anything there (kinda like me and WE or Community etc) ... and I really think to understand what OLC does well and doesn't and same with WDW, one should at least be exposed to this type of discussion. So while I'll talk down there, there won't be any more threads by me (at least until I figure out when I'll be back at TDR -- and it will be in 2011!)
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I understand some folks will say 'I don't care about what isn't working, only what is' and my only response would be you have no idea what you are missing. To experience attractions that opened in 1983 look like they debutted yesterday is truly a wonder. >>> This really can't be overemphasized. Someone unwittingly expressed this in the "negative" thread when they made a positive comment about a WDW attraction that had recently come out of refurb and everything worked properly, was lit properly, and sounded proper. The comment was along the lines of how noticeable it was, and just how much of a difference it made to make the attraction more enjoyable. Kudos to WDW that they still know how to do that when they want to. Unfortunately, to turn the argument around on its head: that's the way the parks should be every day with every attraction, and the ones in Tokyo consistently live up to this standard. As that person in the other thread mentioned about that one attraction, imagine *every* attraction being that way and how it would make both the attractions themselves and the experience overall more enjoyable. Put another way, it appears that the attractions are maintained to the SQS that WDI delivers with them when they are built. How ironic that the only parks that seem to do this consistently are the only ones not managed by TWDC.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>There is a particular location from which you can see the following all in one glance...Country Bears, Thunder Mountain, the Riverboat and Train, as well as Peter Pan's flight and Dumbo, and within a few paces you can also see Snow White's Grotto and the Castle (with the Country Bears still in view. Spirit brings up a great point about the Starjets/Toontown/Fantasyland mess (yup, also all visible in a single glance, don't even have to turn around but if you do you'll also see Space Mountain). It's pretty nasty, when you think about it. You can tell the imaginers had their hearts and minds (and creativity) in Orlando at that point in history.<<<< While I hate to judge anything before I see it...YEESH. That can't be good for thematics. Is it really that detracting?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I would argue that the overall quality is also better in Tokyo...though you are certainly correct on the portions and the prices (the prices haven't changed much over the years though, so had you visited when the yen was around 115 to the dollar or better, it'd have seemed more of a bargain and been cheaper than WDW by a bit as well (though still pretty skimpy portions wise).>> You can argue all you want, but you won't change my mind on this (although I did enjoy my meals at TDS and the DLH MUCH MORE than TDL). I had a tiny (think McD's basic hamburger in the states) burger at T-Terrace that was very pricey and borderline inedible. Contrast that with a pricey, but very large, very tasty Angus burger I ate at Pecos Bill's in October (with a fixings bar too) and MK wins this battle by a landslide. But hey, TDL wins the popcorn battle (for me, Fantasyland will always bring back thoughts of chocolate popcorn wafting through the queues!) <<I do realize you had some pizza issues, but again talking overall I think the park is pretty consistent (I like DisneySea dining much more though, and consider it the very best park in the world (that I've been to anyway) for food with Epcot in a close second place).>> No pizza issues, X. Burger issues. I kinda wish I had tried that turkey pizza that you had a few days after I left. I didn't dine at TDS enough to rank its food quality worldwide. EPCOT would still be first to me and DLP second ... but the food at TDS definitely seemed worlds better than TDL ... I dunno maybe I should have done Blue Bayou or even Crystal Palace instead of QSR for my meals?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>This really can't be overemphasized. Someone unwittingly expressed this in the "negative" thread when they made a positive comment about a WDW attraction that had recently come out of refurb and everything worked properly, was lit properly, and sounded proper. The comment was along the lines of how noticeable it was, and just how much of a difference it made to make the attraction more enjoyable.<<< That was with me with Pirates. Was nice to see it working so well... but such a shame that it's return to what should be normal maintenance so noticeable.
Originally Posted By SuperDry And I do have to agree with the hodge-podge layout of TDL, at least to some degree. There are often attractions right up to the edge of certain lands, thus preventing smooth transitions. I'm trying to think back to my first visit, which was in 1995. I knew nothing about it going in, other than that it was there, and visited for about a half-day. It was interesting, but it seemed to be just a collection of my favorite DL rides (DL was the only other Disney park I had been to at the time). It certainly seemed bigger, and with more cement in places, than DL. I guess the lack of transitions, and sometimes odd juxtapositions, just don't bother me as much as they do some people. It's kind of odd in a sense, because I really like how they do it right at TDS, and appreciate the difference, but that particular aspect of TDL doesn't disturb me. I actually never think of it unless someone else brings it up.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Very interesting.>> Would you expect anything less? <<Don't like the sound of the transitions in TDL... Sounds very cheap, honestly. Are there any barriers to prevent land leaking into land, or is it just turn a corner and that's it? >> That's just it, EE. There are NO transitions. You want to know how you've changed lands? Simply look down and the pavement color will have changed. That's really it. There's no flow. You just go a few steps from Fantasyland and you are in Critter Country or Tomorrowland. Again, I think this wasn't such an issue when the park was young, but now there isn't much space for development at all and things are just on top of each other. Doesn't mean the park isn't wonderful, it is. But to be a fair Spirit, I must point out the transitions simply don't exist. >>> To experience attractions that opened in 1983 look like they debutted yesterday is truly a wonder.<<< <<While the rest of our MK may be suffering, I have to say that our PotC and HM are kept up pretty well. The latter since it's refurb, and the former since a few weeks ago. I've never seen it looking better. (Like a publicity photo, as I keep gushing...)>> Mansion has looked great the past two years, no doubt about it. But PoC? I'll have to see that to believe it. <<Very shocked about the restrooms...NO QUAIL!??!?! But not shocked about food, portions are smaller as it's a cultural thing. Super-sizing is only a American... er.. innovation?>> Actually, restrooms while clean generally weren't as adorned with things like the themed tile as you see at WDW. And it's only cultural to a point, go to McD's and you can get HUGE burgers just like the USA. So, it may play a factor, but the OLC wanting to make as much as it can on F&B plays a larger one, methinks. <<Speaking of food, what's for eating this weekend? Can't wait to hear about TDS...>> TDS ... truly the template for what a 21st century second gate should be. A buffet for the fanboi senses!
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer Gotta ask... 1971/1983 Tomorrowland in 2010. How does that work? Doesn't it look dated? I do love, however, that SM is actually centered in the land, and serves as the focal point. Hate that WDW's is wedged off to the side.
